question Rear of land rover

[Surveyor]

I am working on the external fittings of my land rover

And have the standard back, first thing I have noticed is the fixing for the axe is different from the land rover part

However, when offering the shovel to the frame, curved side towards the vehicle the bracket number 1 projects further than bracket number 2 and therefore the shovel will not fit, Bracket 3 is to be sorted.

The vehicle was upgraded in Tithonus.

The shovel is a Pioneer made in the 1960's

As yet I have not been able to find an answer can any one help?

[ArtistsRifles]

At a guess the shovel brackets have their positions reversed at some time. Measure the heights to verify the shovel will fit if they are swapped and if thats the case just drill out the rivets and re-rivet into the correct place.

 

What you call the "axe" is actually the head of the pick axe. If memory serves correctly the handle is secured across the hard top above the rear door as in this image:

 

 

No idea what bracket 3 is for - perhaps a 3rd strap for the shovel handle:

 

[sirhc]

Bracket 3, when not bent, is for the handle of the shovel. It should be an L shape.

[ruxy]

Been here LoL , ISTR

 

The bracket for blade , there are two sizes , as fitted to a 109" or Lightweight tailgate - this is for a "NATO service SPADE" , T handle (never D) strapped & not socketed c/w forged blade.

 

However , there is a second size of bracket , normally fitted to such as Defender s/w back doors , mil. types and sometimes front to wings (civvy - also to such as Camel Trophy) , this is for a No.2 SHOVEL , that should be strapped c/w forged blade T handle .

 

This Bulldog is near but is cheaper and weaker socketed.

 

http://bulldoghandtools.co.uk/bulldog-shovels/round-mouth-shovels/bulldog-round-mouth.html

 

If you don't have the correct tool , then your thingies don't work proper..

 

 

-------------------------

 

SIZE is ALL ,,

 

https://www.thexmod.com/item_detail.asp?id=22576

 

Series , leafer

 

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http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/5098/395111-SPADE-RETAINER-BRACKET.html?search=spade%20bracket&page=1

 

Coiler

Edited June 8, 2016 by ruxy
amd.

[10FM68]

This topic hascome up before. Basically, in the British Army shovels and picks were not part of the CES - Complete Equipment Schedule - of the majority of soft-skinned vehicles. So they weren't designed for a particular vehicle. They were designed, primarily, for digging in or, in the case of vehicles, more often digging out!

 

Instead, they were (and probably still are, unless they have been replaced by an app for a smart phone), held in sub-unit (battery/squadron/company) stores as part of the G1098 equipment schedule and scaled according to the role of the unit.

 

The various types of hand tool used by the British Army in the latter half of the last century are shown in this excerpt from The Royal Engineers publication"Basic Combat Engineering Skills dated 1981. It shows: 1. the lightweight pick, which was designed to be worn on the 1958 Patt webbing, 2. the two-piece pickaxe, 3. a square-ended spade (not common in military circles), 4. the "Shovel GS - General Service, 5. the "Shovel RE" and 6, the lightweight shovel which, like 1. was designed to be carried on 58 Pattern webbing.

 

I cannot recall any of these being referred to as "pioneer tools" - I think this is an American expression.

 

Land Rovers from Series 2 onwards had provision for stowing 2. a Pickaxe and 4. a Shovel GS.

 

6. The lightweight shovel was carried on the scuttle of the 1 tonne Land Rover.

 

Shovels GS were made by a number of manufacturers, including Draper and Bulldog. If a particular shovel GS doesn't fit in the bracket on a particular Land Rover and the bracket isn't damaged, it is probable that the angle between the head and the shaft is smaller than others as they do vary according to manufacturer and batch. Plus they do get bent! In service I have come across a number of shovels which either fit badly or not at all in the bracket provided on various Land Rovers. In fact, of the two I currently have in use, one fits my half ton and the other doesn't. Shovels RE are considerably wider than shovels GS - more pronounced even than the illustration in the book above and their blades certainly wouldn't fit into a bracket on a vehicle. But they don't crop up very often except with the Sappers.

 

I'm afraid I haven't heard of a "NATO service spade". Each member nation of NATO will have its own specification for basic things such as hand tools and it is unlikely that there is a specific design for the shovel - different nations have their own preferences - certainly the US seem to prefer their shovels with "D" handles while ours generally have a "T". The Bundeswehr favour shovels with extra long handles and neither a D or a T and so on.

 

I'm afraid I don't know why the blade brackets for Series and Defenders should be different - the shovels didn't alter - perhaps it is a metric/imperial issue! But, again, I don't know what a shovel No2 is, unless it is specifically for doing a shovel recce!!

 

But there are plenty of ex-British military shovels GS on e-Bay, some brand new, others used, to look at for illustration. The vast majority of them are socketed - I never saw a strapped one in the Army during my service, but that is not to say they didn't exist at different times.

 

Hope this adds to the debate and clears up some of the confusion. But, I left the Army a couple of years ago and things do change. There may be others whose experiences differ from mine in this regard.

 

Best

 

10 68

[ruxy]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]115933[/ATTACH]

This topic hascome up before. Basically, in the British Army shovels and picks were not part of the CES - Complete Equipment Schedule - of the majority of soft-skinned vehicles. So they weren't designed for a particular vehicle. They were designed, primarily, for digging in or, in the case of vehicles, more often digging out!

 

Instead, they were (and probably still are, unless they have been replaced by an app for a smart phone), held in sub-unit (battery/squadron/company) stores as part of the G1098 equipment schedule and scaled according to the role of the unit.

 

The various types of hand tool used by the British Army in the latter half of the last century are shown in this excerpt from The Royal Engineers publication"Basic Combat Engineering Skills dated 1981. It shows: 1. the lightweight pick, which was designed to be worn on the 1958 Patt webbing, 2. the two-piece pickaxe, 3. a square-ended spade (not common in military circles), 4. the "Shovel GS - General Service, 5. the "Shovel RE" and 6, the lightweight shovel which, like 1. was designed to be carried on 58 Pattern webbing.

 

I cannot recall any of these being referred to as "pioneer tools" - I think this is an American expression.

 

Land Rovers from Series 2 onwards had provision for stowing 2. a Pickaxe and 4. a Shovel GS.

 

6. The lightweight shovel was carried on the scuttle of the 1 tonne Land Rover.

 

Shovels GS were made by a number of manufacturers, including Draper and Bulldog. If a particular shovel GS doesn't fit in the bracket on a particular Land Rover and the bracket isn't damaged, it is probable that the angle between the head and the shaft is smaller than others as they do vary according to manufacturer and batch. Plus they do get bent! In service I have come across a number of shovels which either fit badly or not at all in the bracket provided on various Land Rovers. In fact, of the two I currently have in use, one fits my half ton and the other doesn't. Shovels RE are considerably wider than shovels GS - more pronounced even than the illustration in the book above and their blades certainly wouldn't fit into a bracket on a vehicle. But they don't crop up very often except with the Sappers.

 

I'm afraid I haven't heard of a "NATO service spade". Each member nation of NATO will have its own specification for basic things such as hand tools and it is unlikely that there is a specific design for the shovel - different nations have their own preferences - certainly the US seem to prefer their shovels with "D" handles while ours generally have a "T". The Bundeswehr favour shovels with extra long handles and neither a D or a T and so on.

 

I'm afraid I don't know why the blade brackets for Series and Defenders should be different - the shovels didn't alter - perhaps it is a metric/imperial issue! But, again, I don't know what a shovel No2 is, unless it is specifically for doing a shovel recce!!

 

But there are plenty of ex-British military shovels GS on e-Bay, some brand new, others used, to look at for illustration. The vast majority of them are socketed - I never saw a strapped one in the Army during my service, but that is not to say they didn't exist at different times.

 

Hope this adds to the debate and clears up some of the confusion. But, I left the Army a couple of years ago and things do change. There may be others whose experiences differ from mine in this regard.

 

Best

 

10 68

 

I can show photographs of GS spade (small shovel) branded with NATO numbers , manufactured by Bulldog , strapped , forged , T handle dated in quite recent years - the NATO branded numbers are in fact for NATO counties (IIRC one being only applicable to Norway) that does not include UK (ISTR was result of research). Other than the NSN branded - all these shovels identical in all respects , ISTR the Norway ones ? I purchased were / still are brand new & unused issue..

 

The GS shovels , identical but presses steel - normally are dated WW2 (still being released) , the angle is different - hence they don't secure well . The lengths of the WW2 era (still being demobbed) can vary a bit amongs manufacturers (often 2" shorter than the accepted length IIRC 28").

 

Try a few searches on the EMLRA Forum - all described with lots of photographs ,, however - I did not get around to the No.2 SHOVEL ,, I think you will find that Spear & Jackson website describe their NATO as a 'service spade/ shovel'

Edited June 9, 2016 by ruxy
spelin

[ruxy]

btw 'Triggers-broom' , replacement wood , there are TWO versions , taper-socket and a similar eccentric taper-socket (by abt. 10mm) - re-shaft with the wrong one and your spade/shovel will not fit the "gardening tool mounts" , it will probably be 2" out .

 

ISTR strapped should be eccentric taper , you will find the WW2 era. pressed steel blade tools are straight-taper - hence if you can get them to fit and secure the webbing straps - they will not appear correct. This I see is the problem probably in this thread - same with modern similar civvy tools ,, the L'wt normal spade can be called a Infantry spade (I believe going back to origins of WW1 , 3 men - two carried spades and the third the pick-axe) , not to be confused with the post WW2 shorter drilled for webbing 101" type shortie (rabbiting spade) .

Edited June 9, 2016 by ruxy
amd.

[ruxy]

Defender Wolf , spade / shovel (shovel No. 2 - I think to be correct) when mounted to front wings.

The bracket for tool blade = RRC8370 / 78248 / WC702101

 

The above according to official Land Rover Parts List for Defender

 

---

 

So , three different sizes of bracket , hardly 1" between the length of all three (fixings IIRC to vehicle are same) - so fit the wrong bracket , try and mount the wrong tool - it does not work & appearance is wrong..

[10FM68]

Hmmm! Interesting, thanks for that, Ruxy. I think that in very recent times, Land Rover have offered a shovel and a pickaxe as a genuine part, or, perhaps, accessory. I have seen pick helves in original Land Rover wrapping. They were painted matt army green, so presumably were intended to accompany their products on the military market, but whether that included the British armed forces I don't know - it could be they were for export orders. We were always told not to paint wooden tool handles or hafts, as that stopped the wood breathing and made it brittle - they were always oiled instead.

 

I'm not sure, though what you mean here:

 

the NATO branded numbers are in fact for NATO counties (IIRC one being only applicable to Norway) that does not include UK (ISTR was result of research). Other than the NSN branded - all these shovels identical in all respects ,

 

I'm sure you know that each NATO country has its own national identifier which is applied to its products meeting NATO standards - ours is "99", so, yes, it does include the UK and, yes, Norway has one too "25" and some non-NATO countries such as Australia and Sweden also have them. But if allied countries use equipment sourced from the UK, it will bear a 99 code, just as we have kit from other countries which bear their national identifiers.

 

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about a chap struggling to identify a piece of bent metal on the rear door of his Land Rover. Methinks we have strayed away too far and we mustn't hijack the thread!

 

Best

 

10 68

[ruxy]

Hmmm! Interesting, thanks for that, Ruxy. I think that in very recent times, Land Rover have offered a shovel and a pickaxe as a genuine part, or, perhaps, accessory. I have seen pick helves in original Land Rover wrapping. They were painted matt army green, so presumably were intended to accompany their products on the military market, but whether that included the British armed forces I don't know - it could be they were for export orders. We were always told not to paint wooden tool handles or hafts, as that stopped the wood breathing and made it brittle - they were always oiled instead.

 

I'm not sure, though what you mean here:

 

the NATO branded numbers are in fact for NATO counties (IIRC one being only applicable to Norway) that does not include UK (ISTR was result of research). Other than the NSN branded - all these shovels identical in all respects ,

 

I'm sure you know that each NATO country has its own national identifier which is applied to its products meeting NATO standards - ours is "99", so, yes, it does include the UK and, yes, Norway has one too "25" and some non-NATO countries such as Australia and Sweden also have them. But if allied countries use equipment sourced from the UK, it will bear a 99 code, just as we have kit from other countries which bear their national identifiers.

 

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about a chap struggling to identify a piece of bent metal on the rear door of his Land Rover. Methinks we have strayed away too far and we mustn't hijack the thread!

 

Best

 

10 68

 

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It is going back a few years now, I had a look at a few spades in the garage. I think I got in a bit of confusion due to a badly stamped NSN , I think I Googled around and determined there were other national NATO numbers for what was the same spade.

 

Due to my re-paint the numbers are now difficult to read - but all seem 910-5934

 

& the ones I kept as Ideal for Lightweight , pointless having earlier dated when S1 enthusiasts must have date marked wheel-rims to match their vehicle date of manufacture :-

 

Bulldog 1985

 

Elwell 1965 ( became part of S&J group)

 

S&J Spear & Jackson 1986

 

Bulldog 1991 , later forged version where a welded on heel-bar is used.

 

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E & W Lucas Ltd. 1954 , no NSN , just broad-arrow + 112353

 

-------

 

I don't think the CES actually states the style spec. of the spades , the buffer rubbers accomodate the variation on pick-axle lengths - IIRC abt. 2"

 

No problem with Lightweight spade loop on hinge , the rest of LR's - as you can see there is a choice of three brackets for spades that all look the same but differ in dimensions. It is a case of identify according to the parts book and if the late'ish forged spades don't fit - then try a No. 2 shovel..

 

---

[Surveyor]

At a guess the shovel brackets have their positions reversed at some time. Measure the heights to verify the shovel will fit if they are swapped and if thats the case just drill out the rivets and re-rivet into the correct place.

 

What you call the "axe" is actually the head of the pick axe. If memory serves correctly the handle is secured across the hard top above the rear door as in this image:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]115930[/ATTACH]

 

No idea what bracket 3 is for - perhaps a 3rd strap for the shovel handle:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]115931[/ATTACH]

 

I suspected that they had been swapped but wasn't sure, many thanks re the handle, I was wondering where that went, there are no straps where yours is stowed.

Just need a butterfly nut with the same thread as the fitting for the axe

[ArtistsRifles]

Also one of these: http://www.paddockspares.com/336351-axe-r-plate.html

[Surveyor]

Also one of these: http://www.paddockspares.com/336351-axe-r-plate.html

 

Thanks, have that and a washer, what I have noticed is that the traditional fitting for the axe to the land rover has the fixing flanges folded under mine has them out side of the unit so it can be fixed from the outside, I have the original butterfly wing nut for the original fitting but not having counted the threads suspect the fitting is metric.

The picture you supplied shows a rounded nut to hold the axe.

Having looked again at my vehicle there is no position to hold the axe as the cab is glass fibre, more digging to do

Edited June 10, 2016 by Surveyor

[ruxy]

Thanks, have that and a washer, what I have noticed is that the traditional fitting for the axe to the land rover has the fixing flanges folded under mine has them out side of the unit so it can be fixed from the outside, I have the original butterfly wing nut for the original fitting but not having counted the threads suspect the fitting is metric.

The picture you supplied shows a rounded nut to hold the axe.

Having looked again at my vehicle there is no position to hold the axe as the cab is glass fibre, more digging to do

 

==================

 

The 'traditional' pick-axe bracket fitting is designed such that it can be correctly mounted over the central spline of a TAIL-GATE (other than a Lightweight split tail-gate) - it is bolted on with a pair of 5/16" dia. x 1.1/2" bolts

 

http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/2333/337981-PICK-HEAD-SUPPORT-BRACKET.html?search=337981&page=1

 

The L'wt type is surface mounted using pop-rivets , same as when used correctly on a stn. wgn. side-hinged door.

 

Bracket "c" , when not bent is designed such that a shovel of incorrect lenght can not be fitted , because if you do this - then your rear quarter panel gets bent - as yours is , because you can't fully open the door. It is normal for a tail-gate (inc. L'wt. type) to have the pick helve + shovel extending well beyond the width of the tail-gate , BUT not a door.

 

To repeat - all this is correctly designed by Solihull , you select the correct parts for the application and only mount suitable tools.

Edited June 10, 2016 by ruxy
spelin

[Surveyor]

==================

 

The 'traditional' pick-axe bracket fitting is designed such that it can be correctly mounted over the central spline of a TAIL-GATE (other than a Lightweight split tail-gate)

 

http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/2333/337981-PICK-HEAD-SUPPORT-BRACKET.html?search=337981&page=1

 

The L'wt type is surface mounted , same as when used correctly on a stn. wgn. side-hinged door.

 

Bracket "c" , when not bent is designed such that a shovel of incorrect lenght can not be fitted , because if you do this - then your rear quarter panel gets bent - as yours is , because you can't fully open the door. It is normal for a tail-gate (inc. L'wt. type) to have the pick helve + shovel extending well beyond the width of the tail-gate , BUT not a door.

 

To repeat - all this is correctly designed by Solihull , you select the correct parts for the application and only mount suitable tools.

 

Unfortunately the bracket I have is not the pattern the link shows, I have the one below,

[ruxy]

As I stated , that is a surface mount type , applicable to Lightweight and Station Wagon rear door , actually in some cases ISTR the other type designed for tail-gate is in fact used on front wings too.

 

Your door is correct in all respects , along with rear roof panel (other than bkt. "C" being bent) , as stated - been there done it and I am certain the correct tool is the No.2

[Surveyor]

Was Down at Witham the other day, checked the Landrovers all brackets as mine, solves one problem.

Got the Bull dog 28 inch spade and found it does not fit either, need to source a spade