question WW2 RAF vehicle markings.

[Ian L]

Hi guys I want to mark up my Humber box Heavy utility as an RAF vehicle based at RAF Enstone in WW2.

I know that it would have B/91 on one wing & RAF on the other ? but I would like to know the correct size of the roundel, the correct size & font of the RAF12345 on the door & any other markings front, rear or side ?

I believe there is a book out there showing this info ?

Regards Ian

[ted angus]

Ian, This is extracted from the regs. offside wing roundel with the B/91 above it. the roundel should be: outer dia 9 inch, middle 5.4inch, inner 1.8 inch- sorry they are in tenths but that was the ruler I used. The Command/Group code should be 5 inches high ( in white) in a plain style. Roman numerals are not to be used. NO roundel on the back, but the Command /group will be displayed on the back- should be applied between the centre line and left side as viewed.

I have never found the size for RAF 1234 etc but it should be white displayed front and rear . But I would guess the same size as those used on civillian number plates ??

 

The application of the aluminium letters RAF on the doors or vehicle sides was ceased when the roundel was introduced.

hope this helps

TED

Edited May 4, 2016 by ted angus

[LarryH57]

Very interesting Ted.

 

I'm sure you will agree that the vehicle should not be RAF blue - which in Ian's case isn't

[Ian L]

Very interesting Ted.

 

I'm sure you will agree that the vehicle should not be RAF blue - which in Ian's case isn't

 

Correct Larry my Humber is staying green as is my Jeep, they were NOT blue :angry The jeep is not strictly correct as the bonnet number is 'made up' & the RAF roundel is a modern adhesive type but its looks ok.

Note the correct Buttler side light & headlamp & no US blackout light.

[super6]

Very interesting Ted.

 

I'm sure you will agree that the vehicle should not be RAF blue - which in Ian's case isn't

 

What colour/s where they? as per Army vehicles following their respective colour changes as the war progressed?

When did the blue colour come in?

Edited May 4, 2016 by super6
spelling or lack of!

[Ian L]

Ian, This is extracted from the regs. offside wing roundel with the B/91 above it. the roundel should be: outer dia 9 inch, middle 5.4inch, inner 1.8 inch- sorry they are in tenths but that was the ruler I used. The Command/Group code should be 5 inches high ( in white) in a plain style. Roman numerals are not to be used. NO roundel on the back, but the Command /group will be displayed on the back- should be applied between the centre line and left side as viewed.

I have never found the size for RAF 1234 etc but it should be white displayed front and rear . But I would guess the same size as those used on civillian number plates ??

 

The application of the aluminium letters RAF on the doors or vehicle sides was ceased when the roundel was introduced.

hope this helps

TED

 

Hi Ted thanks for that info, you mention that the RAF12345 is front & rear ? but most people put then on the L/H door, is that incorrect ?

[Ian L]

What colour/s where they? as per Army vehicles following their respective colour changes as the war progressed?

When did the blur colour come in?

 

Do you mean when did the blue go out ? I thought it was early 1940-41 ish ?

[super6]

Do you mean when did the blue go out ? I thought it was early 1940-41 ish ?

 

Was blue used pre war and post war?

[ted angus]

The reg number or to give it its correct RAF title Identification Number did seem to move to the left door and by late war many vehicles seem to be displaying on both doors; that said looking through my picture files vehicles embarking for Normandy some QLs had it on the sump guard- some above the windscreen some on the -- I could go on , but the majority I would say are on the front; Colour yes from 1941 AMOs mirrored the Army.

 

pre WW2 RAF Blue grey, but photographic evidence shows most vehicles in France 1939/40 were cam as were those on aerodromes at home; The sticking block is the first AMO which gives anything is 1941, I think this date misleads due : A the photo evidence and B the cam requirement would have been in the mobilisation instructions. So we know they went cam but what colours ? I go with what the army were doing at any particular time; I have seen some home movie film in colour taken at RAF Aldergrove just before war was formally declared - everything in sight was being cam sprayed including the pilots personal cars !! I have seen some other similar film taken during the BoB and the vehicles are in a similar scheme to the aircraft parked near them which suggests KG3 and dark green.

 

 

and of course the RAF B/G came back in 1946 in time for the London victory parade.

 

TED

Edited May 4, 2016 by ted angus

[RAFMT]

One thing Ted missed was that the 1941 AMO implies that camouflage paint schemes were officially in widespread use but not necessarily "uniform" across the service.

After that the Air Ministry seemed to keep an eye on the Army's orders and every time they issued a new camouflage order the Air Ministry re-issued the same order about a month later changing all Army references to RAF ones, as if nobody would notice :rolleyes:

 

P.S. It's always nice to see when someone has put an RAF vehicle in the right colours Ian.

Edited May 5, 2016 by RAFMT

[T corbin]

I think the markings on my WOT 3 are correct as coped from a 1942 picture .

[Ian L]

I think the markings on my WOT 3 are correct as coped from a 1942 picture .

 

Very nice looking truck Mr T, explain the 5 front & rear & why no B/ or F/

[T corbin]

This is the picture . RAF Mt section 5 LIVERPOOL . The first coat of paint was RAF blue .When it left the ford at DAGENHAM in 1940 .Then camouflage brown & green {same as most aircraft 1941) .Most of the markings & camouflage pattern where under several layers of paint as was the shade of paint .T CORBIN

[super6]

Thank you chaps, I didn't know they were repainted for war service

 

With tongue firmly in cheek................Were they duck egg blue underneath

[ted angus]

There will always be those that swore blind they have evidence that they were blue from a black / white photo 'shade'

My guess is that the Jeeps arrived from 41 onwards in US olive drab & properly stayed in that green and had an RAF number stencilled on ? why bother painting a different shade of green ?

 

Once into a cam colour repaints were only carried out on a necessity basis. Certain organisations did not use the B/91 type of marking. Across the UK the RAF had regional MT Companies , They were to bear their company number as in Tony's pictures, No 5 were based in Liverpool and one of their main tasks was moving aircraft that arrived by sea from the US of A to Speke where they were assembled.

TED

[RAFMT]

One of my favourite items in the RAF Museum collection is a photograph album of various movements by 5 MT Company, which contains a copy of the above photo. There is an eclectic collection of vehicles being used.

[ted angus]

Indeed I remember finding a picture of their Mack 18 ton former tank transporter. Over the years the MT companies must have carried some weird and wonderful stuff.

TED

[LarryH57]

Tony, well done for your restoration and what a stroke of luck to find a photo of it in service. Its interesting to see RAF personnel as outriders on the Fordsons, like gangsters or secret servicemen on the President's car!

 

NB Are you still looking for a trailer and a P-51 to put on the back?

[T corbin]

Allerton road in LIVERPOOL . BEDFORD TRUCTOR or OX ??? T CORBIN

[T corbin]

Hi Larry

The black widow would be ok

[RAFMT]

The one above, which is from the album I mentioned, is the desktop on my work PC!

The previous picture is, I believe, of normal OX tractors, since these were built to do the job so no need to convert them into tractors if that makes sense?

How about a Fordson 7V based Tructor, from the same source as above.

[super6]

Ian, This is extracted from the regs. offside wing roundel with the B/91 above it. The Command/Group code should be 5 inches high ( in white) in a plain style.

The Command /group will be displayed on the back

I have never found the size for RAF 1234 etc but it should be white displayed front and rear .

TED

 

What does the B/91 signify? Where it is based or the Command it comes under?

 

Is the Command/group the number RAF1234 etc? Presumably this is the vehicles registration/census number as per the Z number on Army trucks?

 

Thanks in advance :-)

[ted angus]

The B/91 is not a particular base but B= Bomber Command 91 = 91 group - group within Bomber Command, 91 Groups role was Operational training of Bomber crews.

The RAF Identification number is RAF 1234 etc often refered to as reg or census number.

TED

[ted angus]

Allerton road in LIVERPOOL . BEDFORD TRUCTOR or OX ??? T CORBIN

 

Its an OXC , I've seen a couple of shots where 5 MT are using OXCs, I have a shot somewhere of the IXC being used on a USAAF base and the tail wheel of the oplane is mounted somewhere on the 5th wheel coupling ??

TED

[ted angus]

The one above, which is from the album I mentioned, is the desktop on my work PC!

The previous picture is, I believe, of normal OX tractors, since these were built to do the job so no need to convert them into tractors if that makes sense?

How about a Fordson 7V based Tructor, from the same source as above.

and in late 1944 it all went into reverse with aircraft being embarked at Liverpool for wars further afield ; What with all the toing and froing to and from Pearsons Liverpools streets must have been exceptionally busy in the war years .

TED