Triumph 3sw Contract 62943 - C62943

[jenkinov]

I have a triumph 3sw from contract C7162 so am always on the look out for sensible useful spares ..a few years ago that led me to an engine again from C7162 , I recently acquired a copy of British forces motorcycles 1925-45 by Chris Orchard and Steve Madden and find it useful to help verify bike and parts i see in the market .

 

A 3sw Engine recently appeared on E Bay and whilst tempted sensibly one spare engine is enough ....but I reviewed the photos and clearly stamped in the engine is Contract number C62943 , The contract is not listed in the BFM directory ..?

 

The engine number is 27161 ...Which puts it in 1938 or 1939 .....

 

I do note that contract C5108 has a series of WD serial no allocations one of which is the range 62916 to 63085 , potentially the engine builder has added C to this number rather than stamping C5108 ....

 

its a theory any comments

 

Jenkinov

[Ron]

Well I would say that the clues indicate it comes from contract C5108 which was for 3300 bikes and that engine number 27161 is only 445 away from the only indicated number 27606. I have seen at least three 'impressed' AJS's with the census number stamped on the crankcase like this one below. So perhaps it was the done thing with those early bikes? Ron

[79x100]

It is indeed an early 5-digit RASC census number and this stamping with the large 'C' is characteristic of what seems to have been applied at Feltham during late 1939 / early 1940. By this time, RAOC were allocating census numbers in consecutive order to frame numbers but RASC were still random. The same system is also seen on C5107 RE WD/Cs

 

 

Here's 3SW C63511

 

 

Subsequent to this procedure, there seems to have been a period of stamping contract numbers. I've seen this on Enfield, Triumph and Norton.

 

I've also seen pre-war Nortons with the census number stamped but these are less consistent in style and I suspect were stamped by depots if the engines were removed for attention.

[jenkinov]

Thanks Gents that's really helpfully . First time I have seen this type of stamping . The examples you have given really help.

 

Jenkinov

[Einbeck Bowl]

That´s mine:

C 6128

35244

3S

[79x100]

The stamping showing C6128 reflects the slightly later system (this contract commenced delivery in July 1940). It is possible that by this time, they were linking frame to serial number consecutively. Whatever the case, they had clearly decided to stamp only the contract number and not the individual serial number.

 

Motorcycle contract numbers generally started with a 'C' as per the serials but occasionally they slipped up and used the 'V' (Vehicle) prefix and later on changed to 'S' when vehicles for all services were ordered through the Ministry of Supply.

[street]

I have a triumph 3sw from contract C7162 so am always on the look out for sensible useful spares ..a few years ago that led me to an engine again from C7162 , I recently acquired a copy of British forces motorcycles 1925-45 by Chris Orchard and Steve Madden and find it useful to help verify bike and parts i see in the market .

 

A 3sw Engine recently appeared on E Bay and whilst tempted sensibly one spare engine is enough ....but I reviewed the photos and clearly stamped in the engine is Contract number C62943 , The contract is not listed in the BFM directory ..?

 

The engine number is 27161 ...Which puts it in 1938 or 1939 .....

 

I do note that contract C5108 has a series of WD serial no allocations one of which is the range 62916 to 63085 , potentially the engine builder has added C to this number rather than stamping C5108 ....

 

its a theory any comments

 

Jenkinov

 

Hope you don't mind me coming in on the post with a couple of questions.

 

You mention the BFM directory for contract numbers...how do you get a cess to this?

 

 

I have a 3sw from contract C11465 and would like more information on date and place of manufacture. And what number to paint on the tank. Does the directory hold this info?

[Ron]

Hi. Contract C11465 was for 150 3SW's supplied to the RAF. They were built at the Temporary Warwick works after the bombing of Coventry They were demanded in August 1941 and completed and delivered by September 41. Unfortunately, no RAF vehicle number records exist. I use artistic licence on any RAF or RN motorcycles in my collection by studying original pictures if available and putting on correspondingly similar numbers and markings.

 

http://www.axholmesigns.co.uk/ can help with number and roundel stencils.

 

Regards Ron

[street]

Hi. Contract C11465 was for 150 3SW's supplied to the RAF. They were built at the Temporary Warwick works after the bombing of Coventry They were demanded in August 1941 and completed and delivered by September 41. Unfortunately, no RAF vehicle number records exist. I use artistic licence on any RAF or RN motorcycles in my collection by studying original pictures if available and putting on correspondingly similar numbers and markings.

 

http://www.axholmesigns.co.uk/ can help with number and roundel stencils.

 

Regards Ron

Thanks Ron. It's good to put a time line and place of origin on a bike so old.

 

As an RAF machine would it have been olive green from the factory or blue? Can you share a picture of one of the RAF machines you have? Thanks again and in advance.

[Ron]

Definitely not blue. At the outbreak of war most RAF blue vehicles were hurriedly painted in a camouflage colour. All subsequent new vehicles supplied would have been in service colour as supplied to the army. The same applies to Admiralty vehicles. ie Khaki gas-proof No3 to start with, changing to Service Brown in 41/42 and finally Olive Drab in 44 to comply somewhat with the US colour.

 

Here is my RAF Royal Enfield WD/CO and my Norton Big 4 both of which are genuine ex RAF vehicles with markings based on original pictures. Ron

 

PS. click to zoom.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Ron

[street]

Lovely machines Ron. Thanks for sharing.

 

Being a late 41 bike I'm restoring it reads like I have a decision to make on colour... Kaki gas proof No.3 or service brown. I'll ponder that one for a few days.

 

Unless of course the contract stated colour and that is on the BFM Directory too?

[bigduke6]

Street,

 

I recently sprayed my matchless tank Service Brown, you can see it compared to what was on the bike (think its the second to last pic in the link)

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?54083-WD-Matchless-Chassis-and-Catalogue-No-s/page5

[Ron]

Lovely machines Ron. Thanks for sharing.

 

Being a late 41 bike I'm restoring it reads like I have a decision to make on colour... Kaki gas proof No.3 or service brown. I'll ponder that one for a few days.

 

Unless of course the contract stated colour and that is on the BFM Directory too?

 

I would think that in late 41 the colour would most likely still be Khaki gas proof No3. It's more difficult as there are no BS colour codes for this colour, unlike Service Brown or Olive Drab which are easy. Ron

[79x100]

It's quite rare for even the most re-painted motorcycle to have been chemically stripped. It may be worthwhile to have a good look inside frame tubes etc. as quite often there will be traces of original paint there - unless it's a Royal Enfield that went back to the factory in 1945 for reconditioning. I don't believe that Triumph did this.

[jenkinov]

great news to hear about another Triumph 3sw Survivor . The triumph factory was destroyed in the infamous coventry blitz with the factory at priory street and adjacent to coventry cathedral being destroyed in a series of raids , C7162 which my bike is from was interrupted by the destruction , Your bike appears to be from Cc11465 which was the last meaningful contract of triumph 3sw and was completed at a temporary factory at cape warwick , after this production was shifted to 3HWs at Meriden .

 

I am aware of a few post blitz bikes but none from your contract , , Thee is a directory of Triumph wartime bikes at wdtriumphnl ..http:/wdtriumph.nl/3swframe.html . I believe this lists about 30 triumph 3sw although there are undoubtedly many more ..

 

It would be useful to have your frame number on the bikes headstock plus frame date which is on the frame post directly beneath the seat in the format TE0840..and the engine number ..photos would also be great ..

 

You asked about the BFM Directory this is an appendix of contracts in the excellent British forces motorcycles book by Chris Orchard and Steve Madden , Its a great start for any research and the directory contains the definitive summary of known contracts placed by the government

 

 

 

Jenkinov

[street]

It's quite rare for even the most re-painted motorcycle to have been chemically stripped. It may be worthwhile to have a good look inside frame tubes etc. as quite often there will be traces of original paint there - unless it's a Royal Enfield that went back to the factory in 1945 for reconditioning. I don't believe that Triumph did this.

 

you would think so 79x100 and I'm sure there normally would be some paint traces, but not on this 3SW....

[street]

great news to hear about another Triumph 3sw Survivor . The triumph factory was destroyed in the infamous coventry blitz with the factory at priory street and adjacent to coventry cathedral being destroyed in a series of raids , C7162 which my bike is from was interrupted by the destruction , Your bike appears to be from Cc11465 which was the last meaningful contract of triumph 3sw and was completed at a temporary factory at cape warwick , after this production was shifted to 3HWs at Meriden .

 

I am aware of a few post blitz bikes but none from your contract , , Thee is a directory of Triumph wartime bikes at wdtriumphnl ..http:/wdtriumph.nl/3swframe.html . I believe this lists about 30 triumph 3sw although there are undoubtedly many more ..

 

It would be useful to have your frame number on the bikes headstock plus frame date which is on the frame post directly beneath the seat in the format TE0840..and the engine number ..photos would also be great ..

 

You asked about the BFM Directory this is an appendix of contracts in the excellent British forces motorcycles book by Chris Orchard and Steve Madden , Its a great start for any research and the directory contains the definitive summary of known contracts placed by the government

 

 

 

Jenkinov

 

Thanks Jenkinov, I've ordered the book.

 

I managed to check the date stamp which looks like T.E.C.7.40 but I suppose it could be T.E.0.7.40 as its "C" is not too clear. Does 7.40 mean its made in July 1940?

 

Frame number will need to wait until it comes back from sand blasting as its not clear enough to read accurately. it does start T.L.211?? which I think is T.L.21170, but will confirm later.

 

Engine Number is 3SW 40286.

 

I'll post pictures as the resurrection progresses.

 

Thanks again.

Edited October 31, 2016 by street
to add engine number

[Ron]

Yes Street, it's TEC (Triumph Engineering Company) and yes July 1940. We have a similar discussion on the 3HW thread with some pictures you might find useful.

 

Good luck with this project (some would say, just rub it over with oil to preserve the patina???). I just deal with each part in turn till everything is ready for assembly and I find it especially gratifying when the wheels are complete with bearings, brakes, tyres etc fitted. It's like twenty pieces become one. Just shout out if you want specific pictures. I for one have lots on record and I'm sure between us we can always provide others if required. Ron

[bigduke6]

Thats certainly some project you have....... looking forward to the updates. The book you have ordered is an excellent read and credit to the Authors, the scale of repairs done is a real eye opener when looking at the pictures at the beginning.

[jenkinov]

Street , Thanks for the details and photos , Whilst there is no bike from your engines contract on the Triumph register there is one owned by Ron Cobb , He has photos and a brief history on his web site of 2 3SWs in his collection one of which is C11465 ..Roncobb.com

 

He lists the details as below ..and this puts your engine number with 10 of his ..Your frame number links to July 1940 and potentially contract C7162 interrupted by the factories destruction ..but it may be worth waiting to see the full number visible after cleaning ..

 

 

Triumph 3SW Date of manufacture 1940. Delivered (eventually), 28/8/1941 to: RAF Carlisle.

Military Contract number: C 11465.

Civilian Registration number HPP 66

Frame number: TL 30296.

Engine number: 3SW 40296. Contract number: C 11465. (+piled arms)

Gearbox number: TE 40897

Gearbox casting numbers: T264. SW1040

Gearbox stamped: 16 M (along with military piled arms arrow).

 

Jenkinov

[Ron]

As Jenk says and you will see from your O&M book when it arrives. Your frame is from Army contract C7162 which is a contract with gaps. I'm sure between us we can work out the census number. However, your engine is from that RAF contract C11465. Ron

[street]

As Jenk says and you will see from your O&M book when it arrives. Your frame is from Army contract C7162 which is a contract with gaps. I'm sure between us we can work out the census number. However, your engine is from that RAF contract C11465. Ron

 

HI Guys,

 

Frame number is confirmed as T.L.21170. What is the significance of the census number? (I'm assuming that its different from the contract number?).

[Ron]

The contract number is the number under which a particular batch of vehicles was ordered. Any changes or upgrades by the War Office, Admiralty, Air Ministry or manufacturer would have been associated to that contract/batch and the vehicle would have had a plate attached, stamped with its relevant contract number. This would ensure that any fitters or operators could use the appropriate handbook, workshop manual and parts list.

 

The census number ( 'C' number for motorcycles) is effectively just its registration number.

 

Regards Ron

Edited November 8, 2016 by Ron

[jenkinov]

I recently came across a Triumph 3SW frame from C7162 which was fitted with a Triumph 500CC engine ...Despite being triumph this engine had few stamps to help me date the engine but did have what appeared to be a WD arrow ...but little else

 

I noye in the various photos on this thread that the WD arrow id often above a letter and 2 numbers ..eg WD arrow above M above 68 ....Does anyone have any ideas of knowledge of these and can they answer 3 Questions

 

A Is a WD arrow only used on WD vehicles or did it have a wider use

B Its been suggested the letter is linked to a date ..on wartime clothing the letter is above the arrow but V is 1935 U 1936 W1937 ..etc So M would be 1944 ..This suggests whilst this is the accepted interpretation on clothing the same number does not work on bikes

 

C i have seen 66 and 68 ..are there other nos used under the arrow ..and do they have any meaning ..

 

This Question is driven by a wish to confirm if an particular engine is military , so theories and comments appreciated

 

Jenkinov

[Ron]

Hi Jenk. Yes that stamping you refer to is military. It's an inspectors acceptance stamp. Each inspector had his own number and I guess the M is for 'ministry' As far as I know each big factory supplying motorcycles had their own in house ministry approved inspector. I think there were also roving inspectors. The 500cc engine must have been a 5S. A number of these were supplied to the WO (nearly 1500). It looks like the guy at Triumph was 68 or 88 (often these stamps are not completely legible, especially when attached to a curved surface).

 

I have some actual 'Pathe' footage of the inspector at the Welbike works, which I have freeze framed. It's strange to actually see the guy who touched my Welbike. He stamped them on the front of the headstock near the frame number and mine is very faint.

 

Jan Vandevelde in Belgium is keeping a register of these inspectors and can almost definitely tell the numbers of all of them at the major factories.

 

As far as I'm aware, the Crows Foot/Broad Arrow is a WD mark only, but I don't know if there was any form of trade mark or copyright arrangement to stop anyone else using it? Ron