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robin craig

02 CC 90 Daimler Ferret

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Guykay,

 

we have been talking about this and will revisit the subject at my Saturday breakfast with my chum and we will physically look at it on Wednesday night if we get to work that night.

 

Will report back, and in the mean time I am hoping that perhaps others will post their comments on this, I am by no means correct on everything in life, witness two ex wives . . .

 

Robin

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The washer that you flipped over has a lip on it that is there to support the seal.Does the John Deere seal not require this?

I have replaced old oil seals in the past & have found that the new seals come with a second 'wiper' ring behind the main sealing ring. This is what prevents fitting of the support washer the correct way. It is usually possible to source the correct 'old style' seal so that the support washer can be fitted the correct way round. Is this seal now not available for the ferret? I only ask as I havd a Mk 2/3 that may well need this type of attention in the next year.

 

Hi Guy,

You are quite correct that the lip on the spacer ring is to prevent the lip from moving out under pressure. There are also several thicknesses of ring to ensure the seal is retained by the circlip securely. The correct seal was made by George Angus, under the GACO name and bore the number MIS112 ....... but, I recall when working in REME workshops that we had some seals come up for jobs, marked correctly as MIS112, but shaped different on the outside so that the support spacer did not fit in. Investigations found there were two versions, I think there may be another mark on the seal to denote. It is a common size Imperial seal and I recall may have been used on Land Rovers as well. I think it was a US based owner who came up with the John Deere number, but it probably costs more and the lack of lip support could mean oil loss at certain point of time if internal pressure was high.

Some years ago, I made enquiries with my local bearing supplier and a senior guy there had previous experience with seals and bearing supplied for Defence equipment. He went to lengths to find the correct GACO MIS112 seals, although my stock is now depleted. The next time I have to do one, I will get a new support ring machined to fit an available seal (without dirt lip), to ensure reliability.

 

GACO are now owned by Freudenberg Seals.

 

regards, Richard

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Richard

 

are you saying that the seal I should find or cross reference for is MIS112? Is that the letter I or the number 1 between the M and the S?

 

Are you saying that there must be contact with the seal from the start once installed?

 

I am more than happy to be educated, that is what this forum is about, Lord only knows that I do not know near a percentage f what some of you folks know.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Robin

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Richard

 

are you saying that the seal I should find or cross reference for is MIS112? Is that the letter I or the number 1 between the M and the S?

 

Are you saying that there must be contact with the seal from the start once installed?

 

I am more than happy to be educated, that is what this forum is about, Lord only knows that I do not know near a percentage f what some of you folks know.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Robin

 

 

Robin,

It is the letter I.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'Are you saying that there must be contact with the seal from the start once installed?'

 

What I was saying was that this particular seal that was supplied to do the job was MIS112 and the special support washer/spacer has a bevel on it that stops the lip deforming under pressure. Even if you find this seal, there is no guarantee the spacer lip will fit snugly against the seal. We found this out when one was demanded to repair a Ferret. The one supplied was marked MIS112 on it but the spacer would not face up to it. Investigations found this seal size also fits in a Land Rover front axle, but under another NATO stock number, so somewhere in the chain of supply an error occurred, there was a variation in the moulding and I seem to think there was a small mark or letter on the face to denote the correct one. If you were pedantic on fitting the washer, then the only way would be to machine one to suit an available seal. Using a seal with a dirt lip means there is no way the lip can be supported, it has to be a normal wiper seal, without dirt lip if you were to wish to utilise the support.

 

As I said, not done one lately and last time it was a correct seal.

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Well, we got into another project last night for a while and did not have a full night on the Ferret.

 

We hummed and hawed over the seal issue last night for the whole time we had so made no physical progress on the job.

 

Our decision has been this. The seal we removed had a very thick single lip and the seal was very old and hard. We have spoken with some tech folks here and we have taken into consideration the considerable knowledge that Richard has shed on the subject and formed our conclusion and direction.

 

The seal we are using is double lipped and is of a modern design with a good spring support ring.

 

We are going to continue as is and know and understand what Richard has said and we will feel rightly stupid if this all goes pear shaped and we have a leak down the line and have to pull it all out and have have a washer made to fit the seal we used.

 

So a decision means next week we can get this job going back together.

 

I have cages for the rear armour nuts to source asap as we will be repair those when the pack goes back in as well.

 

More next week, and our considerable thanks to Richard Farrant for his input.

 

Regards

 

Robn

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We have had an od last couple of weeks and time has not been available as hoped.

 

We have a dry erase board with a big list of tasks to be done allied to the fluid flywheel part of the project in as much as once it gets moving then it needs to be a proven unit after really no use for many years since coming to the collection.

 

So we are back to basics proving systems and the like and as per instructions making it smart and functional.

 

We are still waiting for the fitting to be able to pressurise the fluid flywheel and hold pressure as per the manual.

 

So, all the universal joints were checked and the splined joints checked and no excessive play there. we will grease later.

 

next the bevel boxes and their pesky breathers, such a small item, such a big consequence. We pulled all four and proved them, well nearly, the front right, predictably as it is the hardest to get at, was locked solid. It is now sitting in a special liquid. The others have been cleaned and put back in.

 

The master cylinder seems ok, the brake lines themselves are good and the wheel cylinders will be next once we have some caps as we dont want the system to drain out if we have to remove the cylinders.

 

We are missing some hull inspection plates and we are going to have some made unless anyone can point us to a supply of them.

 

The rear vertical armour was very iffy and less than perfect as far as bolts holding it on and vacant holes dont impress. So we removed some mangled caged nuts and I have new ones coming in and they will get welded on.

 

The brake flex lines (outside the hull) are just about done, so new ones are being ordered.

 

The whole series of linkages for the throttle we freed up to the point of being smooth as silk now.

 

The rear drums are off and the hubs draining. New oil for there.

 

The interior is getting cleaner slowly.

 

All good progress.

 

Robin

Ferret caged nut 2.jpg

Ferret bevel box breather.jpg

Ferret hull plate.jpg

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Yesterday I stick welded in the new cage nuts, a better design and I am happy with the items sourced. If critical we could remove them down the line and weld in exact copies if they were available.

 

I used a stainless to mild steel electrode in case there was a high carbon issue, weld flowed nicely.

 

Happy camper.

 

Robin

Cage nut new.jpg

Cage nut old.jpg

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Robin,

 

Are the four little tabs on your new cage nuts actually part of the nut itself or is the cage in two pieces with the nut trapped between ? If the former you probably need to be quite precise in fitting it but the end result will be much stronger. Definately worth greasing the bolts when you reassemble it all.

 

I do like your SOP of photocopying any pages of the manual and only the copies are allowed in the workshop.

 

David

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Dear David,

 

Good question you ask. The new cage is made in two pieces and the four tabs hold the centre portion in place. There is a rim around the new piece that I grind off to make the bottom flush.

 

This is what makes the original design weak as the sides can bend outwards if enough pressure is put on a spanner / wrench. The downfall of the original fasteners is that they get liberally hosed with paint and gum up badly.

 

The opening on the underside is generous and I ensured that the new item was centred in the opening and that the nut has plenty of slop to allow for the tolerances needed. It drives me potty seeing fasteners missing and a vehicle looking incomplete.

 

I will use something on the threads before we go back together.

 

Robin

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Here is an image of the top and underside of the cages, hope it helps.

 

Also I just had some access plates made locally on a CNC plasma table. Here are the raw pieces before cleaning up and assembly.

 

Robin

Cage nuts new.jpg

Ferret hull access plate repro 2.jpg

Ferret hull access plates making.jpg

Ferret hull access plate repro.jpg

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Nice job. Good to see im not the only one forced to fabricate parts for ferrets.

 

OZITIM

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Tim,

 

I think there is a point to which hunting for parts and shipping them becomes ridiculous and overly expensive for no reason.

 

I will however say that as a precaution to an over enthusiastic future owner down the road a few years hence I will be stamping the hull plates with "repro" and the year made. I am a little fussy about that.

 

What have you had to make?

 

Robin

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Hi Robin

 

The practice of marking repro parts is laudable, and one practiced by museums such as the Simthsonian Air and Space as a guide to future restorers. But your (others) practice of recording the restoration process with photos which is and will be of equal value to the next owner or next restore of the vehicle. The documentation of what the rusty missing part that has been reproduced is valuable as well.

 

keep up the great work.

 

Cheers Phil

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So, on Wednesday with a newly made plug by our demon machinist locally we went about pressure testing the fluid flywheel as per the manual, which if my grey memory serves me right as 40 psi for 15 minutes.

 

We really feel that the modern dynamic seals have come along way from the 1950 and the back up washer is overkill nowadays, as I have said before, time will be the test.

 

I am delighted to say that all went well and we are thoroughly satisfied with the parts installed.

 

We have since filled the unit and mated the gearbox up to the engine again and intend to run up the engine next week in the shop before putting the powerpack back in. We suspect some carb issues may arise and want to deal with them at that point.

 

We have completed our end user agreement paperwork so we can buy some of the consumables for the project, yes, Ferrets are such dangerous machines and my signature on a piece of paper ensures that I am a good boy. Dont you just love governments.

 

In and exciting parallel activity, we are forging ahead with the design for our B series spin on oil filter adapter, our engineering boffin has come up with some design notes and now it is down to making a drawing and talking with the machinist. There is also a fuel filter project along the same lines happening.

 

Forward progress.

 

Robin

Ferret test plug 3.jpg

Ferret test plug 2.jpg

Ferret test plug 1.jpg

Ferret pressure test.jpg

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I guess it worth pointing out a minor detail but a very important one at this stage.

 

The gearbox and the transfer case both breathe through the dipstick shaft and careful cleaning of the gallery and the holes is important otherwise you potentially can pressurise the cavity. I have seen some units where the dipsticks are almost welded in place with all the gunge around the head.

 

The dipstick is actually a pipe and the head has a cross hole under the cap where it vents.

 

Robin

Ferret Dipstick.jpg

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Tim,

 

I think there is a point to which hunting for parts and shipping them becomes ridiculous and overly expensive for no reason.

 

I will however say that as a precaution to an over enthusiastic future owner down the road a few years hence I will be stamping the hull plates with "repro" and the year made. I am a little fussy about that.

 

What have you had to make?

 

Robin

 

Tunnel shaft covers for drive shafts, petrol tank mounts with vulcanised rubber joiner, Muffler cover, transmission cover, Stowage bins (Except large one), Most of the Commanders seat, most of the drivers seat, petrol sender, and so many other smaller bits and pieces. I need to make the spare wheel cover.

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If you have a ballpien hammer, angle grinder, bench vice, migwelder, a good supply of steel, tolerant neighbors, you have all the parts you need.

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It has been a while so I thought I would drone on some more and let you know what has been happening.

 

We only work on the vehicle when time allows, this is not a primary work project.

 

I have tidied up the interior and have been painting it, I find a 2" wide foam roller really gets in everywhere very well. Very useful tool.

 

We found problems with the wheel cylinders and the master and sent them out for sleeving in stainless. Expensive at $1500 dollars all taxes and delivery in, but it is a lifetime cost for the vehicle. Again, we used John Stuart Power Brake to do the work.

 

We found a previous owner stupid trick when we were tidying up the power pack. In a previous incarnation the power cable to the starter had been spliced using a cobbled together goofy hacked down battery post terminal and covered poorly in tape. This had arced out on the rear right drive shaft. We have now repaired that with a proper connector as replacing the terminals on the end wasn't an option at this point.

 

Anyway, the brake parts are back and I am going to refit the master before sliding in the pack, which may happen this week or may have to wait until after my holiday, which a week from now I will have started.

 

We have also run up the pack and proven all is well there.

 

Robin

Ferret starter wiring 1.jpg

Ferret cylinder.jpg

Ferret run up gauges.jpg

Ferret run up.jpg

Ferret starter wiring 2.jpg

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As always, this summer has been way more busy than any of us have wanted. The Ferret has progressed and is back together but there is a lot to share and I will do so in the coming weeks. I am somewhat amused that no one made any comments on this picture at all, really thought it would start some interest.

Ferret run up gauges.jpg

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It looks like you're measuring something on the filter housing. Either measuring the pressure or the flow rate.

Have you changed the filter type and checking that it isn't restricting the flow too much?

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Yes,

 

Loads to report, just have slipped behind in the updates and posting of photos. I will try and get my act together and plug away at it this weekend maybe.

 

Thanks for prodding me to finish it up

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Yes,

 

Loads to report, just have slipped behind in the updates and posting of photos. I will try and get my act together and plug away at it this weekend maybe.

 

Thanks for prodding me to finish it up

 

 

Just a little poke to you Robin to see if you can update your thread soon. I am currently at a standstill until warmer weather when I will be able to paint my MK2/3. You are a bit further ahead than me so it is nice to see your progress.

CaptMax

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