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Bran D

State of the UK vehicle sales market

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I'm 21 at the moment and have a small collection of classic cars/other toys I like to run around in, as much as I love MVs and have been brought up from day one with them I just see them as a bit too 'niche' now, at most I could afford a decent army Land Rover, but then I already have a civilian Series 3 so what difference does it really make?

I think of all the hundreds of people I know through cars etc. only one or two have MVs, it's difficult to spark an interest in people and get them turned on to the idea of buying them, although I do believe that some 'new blood' would perhaps revive the market a bit.

I've noticed too looking on Milweb recently that a lot of the staple military vehicles that used to be come up regularly for sale such as Ferrets, GMCs etc. are all now a rare sight to see on there, yet 10-15 years ago you could pick one up as a bargain. I remember we bought both our Jimmies for in the region of £3500, if I could buy one for that now it's definitely something I'd consider!

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...It has amazed me that there is so little response from buyers in the UK, or is there really that little money around for post war vehicles?...

 

Going back to the original question, which concerned postwar MVs:

 

The level of response to an advert I guess depends upon four somewhat inter-dependent factors: interest, desirability, affordability, availability.

 

Interest should ideally be of the military/mechanical kind - a true enthusiasm for MVs of a specific era, but may also be generated by mere desirability (e.g. as a financial investment). Is it reasonable to suggest that there is currently a greater level of military-based interest in wartime vehicles than postwar?

 

Desirability is determined partly by availability/rarity, partly by level of interest, but possibly (sadly) more so by how good the MV might be as an investment. A bit like classic cars and now classic tractors?

 

Affordability depends upon both the economy (how much spare cash do we have?) but also how easy it might be to sell the MV if necessary to recoup the initial investment (e.g. you might need the MV to work as a reliable investment in order to justify the investment of ownership).

 

Availability: I'm not sure that postwar MVs are any more plentiful than wartime ones so you can't argue - with of course some notable exceptions like tanks and Patton's jeep(s) - that it is all down to availability. Yes GMC prices have escalated in recent years once supplies of surplus vehicles dried up (for the first 20 years of ownership my GMC was only worth what I paid for it!), but what about say postwar British armoured cars? There are no more of them around either. And there is also the issue of spares availability which might steer people away from some postwar MVs - ok Jeeps cylinder blocks are becoming an issue but, like 1/2 track tracks, that WW2 market sector is big enough to find an answer.

 

I wonder if the answer is simply the number of postwar enthusiasts compared to the the vast number of wartime era enthusiasts? If affordability is key then a Bedford 4x4 or Landrover (**) might be your only way in to the ownership side of the MV hobby, but the choice between a wartime or postwar armoured car would probably be down to your specific interests rather than what a vehicle was worth.

 

** Both vehicles are iconic machines in their own right and deserve equal status to Jeeps or GMCs.

 

My solution to all this is to -

 

* Work on the basis that as soon as a new MV arrives home it becomes worthless

* Never buy anything with the intention of selling it on, let alone at a profit

* Only ever buy an MV because of your own enthusiasm for it

* Be guided by what an MV is worth to you more than what its supposed 'market value' is

 

That way you'll be penniless, have a yard full of worthless crap with no room to spare, but happy as a pig in sh!t :D

Edited by N.O.S.

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Going back to the original question, which concerned postwar MVs:

 

The level of response to an advert I guess depends upon four somewhat inter-dependent factors: interest, desirability, affordability, availability.

 

Interest should ideally be of the military/mechanical kind - a true enthusiasm for MVs of a specific era, but may also be generated by mere desirability (e.g. as a financial investment). Is it reasonable to suggest that there is currently a greater level of military-based interest in wartime vehicles than postwar?

 

Desirability is determined partly by availability/rarity, partly by level of interest, but possibly (sadly) more so by how good the MV might be as an investment. A bit like classic cars and now classic tractors?

 

Affordability depends upon both the economy (how much spare cash do we have?) but also how easy it might be to sell the MV if necessary to recoup the initial investment (e.g. you might need the MV to work as a reliable investment in order to justify the investment of ownership).

 

Availability: I'm not sure that postwar MVs are any more plentiful than wartime ones so you can't argue - with of course some notable exceptions like tanks and Patton's jeep(s) - that it is all down to availability. Yes GMC prices have escalated in recent years once supplies of surplus vehicles dried up (for the first 20 years of ownership my GMC was only worth what I paid for it!), but what about say postwar British armoured cars? There are no more of them around either. And there is also the issue of spares availability which might steer people away from some postwar MVs - ok Jeeps cylinder blocks are becoming an issue but, like 1/2 track tracks, that WW2 market sector is big enough to find an answer.

 

I wonder if the answer is simply the number of postwar enthusiasts compared to the the vast number of wartime era enthusiasts? If affordability is key then a Bedford 4x4 or Landrover (**) might be your only way in to the ownership side of the MV hobby, but the choice between a wartime or postwar armoured car would probably be down to your specific interests rather than what a vehicle was worth.

 

** Both vehicles are iconic machines in their own right and deserve equal status to Jeeps or GMCs.

 

My solution to all this is to -

 

* Work on the basis that as soon as a new MV arrives home it becomes worthless

* Never buy anything with the intention of selling it on, let alone at a profit

* Only ever buy an MV because of your own enthusiasm for it

* Be guided by what an MV is worth to you more than what its supposed 'market value' is

 

That way you'll be penniless, have a yard full of worthless crap with no room to spare, but happy as a pig in sh!t :D

I second the very last phrase! its a bloody good description of my collection and I love it :D

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My solution to all this is to -

 

* Work on the basis that as soon as a new MV arrives home it becomes worthless

* Never buy anything with the intention of selling it on, let alone at a profit

* Only ever buy an MV because of your own enthusiasm for it

* Be guided by what an MV is worth to you more than what its supposed 'market value' is

 

That way you'll be penniless, have a yard full of worthless crap with no room to spare, but happy as a pig in sh!t :D

 

Exactly so O Wise One :D

 

I would add that like any addiction MV ownership has the potential will leave you penniless unless managed correctly.

 

For a first time buyer who worries about future values, I would suggest looking at a 'cross over' type, that will fit into more than just a military show, or can be re-painted by the next owner to be less military, these have more appeal as they can often appease the spousal problem.

 

Someone mentioned Scammell Explorers still selling well, this is why, they show up in all sorts of places, often owned by people with no military interests, and some have changed liveries quite often.

Edited by gritineye

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It has amazed me that there is so little response from buyers in the UK, or is there really that little money around for post war vehicles?

Not sure about UK market, as I am in USA. But I am relatively new to this hobby and decided to buy in UK and import to US, rather than go after something already here. There is a vast difference in price and quality between Stateside postwar British Armor and UK prices. Simply put, I can buy something in England, get it overhauled, import it here and be all in for the same price I would pay for someone's fault ridden machine. So this would provide some life support to UK market -- except that this is such a thinly populated hobby...

 

Which brings me to the other side of the coin - after 9/11, owning and operating armor seems to have become more of a hassle. Everyone views you with a suspicious eye -- you might be an anarchist, terrorist, weirdo or just someone to keep away from. We went to several large gatherings of friends recently and people were uniformly aghast I was buying a Saracen and Fox and literally telling my wife they could provide her with a name of a psychiatrist or divorce lawyer -- her choice. I'm exaggerating somewhat, but I was surprised how little appreciation there was for the notion that this is a hobby and involves cool mechanical machines you can use, not a painting you hang on the wall. Simply put, the environment has become corrosive to armor ownership.

 

Second point is economics. When this stuff was cheap, you owned it for pleasure, it was a passion that you could readily afford, and when the wife complained, a bouquet of flowers would buy some peace. Now the prices have become high, and not just purchase price, but storage, maintenance, insurance, compliance, fuel, etc. So the financial pain has grown considerably. The blue collar owner is getting squeezed out of the hobby, relegating it to those with higher education/incomes, and many of these owners lack the time, knowledge or desire to work on equipment or can afford to hire others to do so. I'm not trying to be insensitive, just observing that if you are a guy who makes $40K a year and can work on your stuff and own it because you served in the army, you are a very different type of owner who makes $200K a year and owns it purely as a toy. The guy that turns the wrench every weekend on his machine feels a constant bond; the "toy" owner has less of a psychic commitment, it's the toy of the moment. He might pick up another hobby, be it collecting watches or antique beer signs next.

 

Armor therefore becomes a transient bug, not a lifelong hobby, and this reduces demand when you look at the trend demographically.

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This is not a plug for advertising but a question as I am very surprised at the low level of response from UK vehicle buyers. I have just renewed adverts for 2 of my vehicles, a Saladin and a Drops, which I am sure are competitively priced and in good condition, but have received a low level of interest from the UK.

We often see vehicles advertised for silly money as people try it on, but I have genuinely tried to be reasonable with the prices quoted in the adverts.

It has amazed me that there is so little response from buyers in the UK, or is there really that little money around for post war vehicles?

What do you think?

 

I've been eyeing your ad for weeks now, have had to stop looking as its depressing me. I think for the quality it is well priced, there is a much cheaper saladin being advertised at the moment too, but looks not so good. But for someone like me looking for both vehicles (although a foden drops is the ultimate) then its a really good combo.

 

Just one issue.... my entire factory burnt to the ground this time last year so no spare cash until way after rebuild is over. Best of luck selling it but secretly I'm hoping you might re advertise next year sometime...... :)

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(although a foden drops is the ultimate)

 

Unless you buy one of the very few Fodens that are already registered (3 I believe) you will have to stick with a Leyland/DAF, width issues make the Foden almost impossible to register, believe me I tried. The tyres are also an issue as they retail at over £3k each and are in demand for loading shovels which makes even part worn ones expensive.

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Not sure about UK market, as I am in USA. But I am relatively new to this hobby and decided to buy in UK and import to US, rather than go after something already here. There is a vast difference in price and quality between Stateside postwar British Armor and UK prices. Simply put, I can buy something in England, get it overhauled, import it here and be all in for the same price I would pay for someone's fault ridden machine. So this would provide some life support to UK market -- except that this is such a thinly populated hobby...

 

Which brings me to the other side of the coin - after 9/11, owning and operating armor seems to have become more of a hassle. Everyone views you with a suspicious eye -- you might be an anarchist, terrorist, weirdo or just someone to keep away from. We went to several large gatherings of friends recently and people were uniformly aghast I was buying a Saracen and Fox and literally telling my wife they could provide her with a name of a psychiatrist or divorce lawyer -- her choice. I'm exaggerating somewhat, but I was surprised how little appreciation there was for the notion that this is a hobby and involves cool mechanical machines you can use, not a painting you hang on the wall. Simply put, the environment has become corrosive to armor ownership.

 

 

Good points both.

With the US govt. not willing to sell armor to civilians the market for that is very steep so we poor folks in the USA are forced to import. There are plenty of transport trucks for sale. I think the recent decision to sell rather than continue to destroy HMMWVs has a lot of people buying one for their collection which lets other vehicles sit wanting.

As to the atmosphere:

While many folks think it's really cool, I've had a couple people who really were very abrasive in a "why do you have such a thing?" manner. I've even had a couple of my neighbors call the county health services and the police, worried about toxic chemicals or radioactive residue (wrong wars, people, but you can't argue with insanity.

If I didn't have to worry about more troubles I'd be looking for a heavy transport rig for towing/hauling a CVR(T).

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News from the DM + Sunday people - reporter does not state his source (only "One said") , plenty of bargains being flogged off , I think not - seems more a plug to suck a few more buyers in for elevated price stuff that is shelved.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/defence-chiefs-flog-military-kit-6049187'>http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/defence-chiefs-flog-military-kit-6049187'>http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/defence-chiefs-flog-military-kit-6049187

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/defence-chiefs-flog-military-kit-6049187

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Back in Holland we had the same ****, why military land rovers, they leak, they are muddy.

in the UK i looked for other toys like DUKW, a tracked vehicle and a foden wrecker.

all plans failed as for me the cost is to high.

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There are some very good points raised in this thread. If I look at the Saladin I am selling, then I consider this a premium vehicle. I.e. Something armoured, different and gains a lot of interest amongst the public, so I would have imagined it would sell at near to the price I was asking. I have been in this hobby since 1977, only as an ethusiast, not a dealer, but have a lot of experience as to what sells at what price. I have owned the Saladin since 1985, so am in no hurry to sell it, I am sure the price accurately reflects its worth, so lets see what happens. Regarding the Daf Drops, I will advertise it on eBay soon, but will start it at a much lower price of around £8500, with no reserve, it's a good vehicle, but does not have the attachment that armour does. I did not want to sell at a really low price as I think it then lowers the value of the drops for other owners who have already gone to the trouble of registering and using these on the road already. But I guess that the market dictates the price, not me!

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Greed, Greed, Greed!

At the end of the day something is only worth what someone is willing to pay no matter what anybody says or thinks!

I bought my GPW 5 years ago for £2500 but it's got to be worth £15000 now right? don't think so.

I keep seeing the same adverts coming up time and again for the same money and not being sold, what does that tell you? it isn't worth it is it!

Just because you paid X amount of money for something doesn't mean you are going to get X back, you may get Z but more likely it will be F.

I've had 5 military vehicles, lost a good deal of money on a couple but that's the nature of the game, nobody likes to loose money but I do this for a hobby not as an investment.

If you have bought as an investment then thank's a lot guys, you have pretty much excluded any youngsters from owning anything other than a pushbike, forget getting a jeep to restore!

Look at the jeep parts on ebay now, everybody thinks what they are selling is worth gold prices, with slogans like RARE and Getting harder to find, no they are not, but some people have very deep pockets and pay, then the next guy comes along and his has got to be worth that!

I put my vehicles for sale on Ebay, the whole world can see it and pay what it's actually worth.

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There are some very good points raised in this thread. If I look at the Saladin I am selling, then I consider this a premium vehicle. I.e. Something armoured, different and gains a lot of interest amongst the public, so I would have imagined it would sell at near to the price I was asking. I have been in this hobby since 1977, only as an ethusiast, not a dealer, but have a lot of experience as to what sells at what price. I have owned the Saladin since 1985, so am in no hurry to sell it, I am sure the price accurately reflects its worth, so lets see what happens. Regarding the Daf Drops, I will advertise it on eBay soon, but will start it at a much lower price of around £8500, with no reserve, it's a good vehicle, but does not have the attachment that armour does. I did not want to sell at a really low price as I think it then lowers the value of the drops for other owners who have already gone to the trouble of registering and using these on the road already. But I guess that the market dictates the price, not me!

 

I know very little about your Saladin,its not my time scale. I do remember seeing it once and very nice it looked too.

Premium vehicle,I really dont know, I thought if others thought so it would have been snapped up by now ?

Interest amounst public, I would not take any notice of that with regard to selling it because they are probably NOT going to be the ones to buy it.

Regarding the Drops I would not worry about how it will/won't affect the value for the other owners, after all they are not selling are they....let them deal with prices when they come sell.

However it turns out though, good luck.

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