Samro Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 How often do the above come up for sale? are there many left?, are RR B81 powerpacks easy to source? what's spares availability like? Lots of questions :-) im new :-) Cheers Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samro Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 The lack of responds im guessing indicates there rarer than I thought!!! I found some part suppliers :- http://www.milweb.net/go/banister/ http://marcusglenn.com/ and even some trucks... one near Taunton [looks like a GS with some kinda rig on the back.] one near Doublebois [actual wrecker!] both are pretty well part fo the scenery and incomplete :-( we have rebuilt a number of tractors and a Thames Trader so it would not be out of the way to bring one back to life if parts are available.. recovering 12 Tons of rusted lorry from a hedge then moving it back to Glos could be interesting!! is there likely to be any better candidates about? keep in mind im looking to return in to original MOD spec for use as a toy the more original and complete the better.. or is this a bit of a pipe dream...? Cheers for any input or advise Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) Which variant are you thinking of, there were 2 10ton GS cargos, a crew cabbed gun tractor, a Howitzer tractor and a recovery; the recoveries are quite common but the best looking and most desirable is the crew cab. The mechanics are somewhat Heath Robinson, the portal front axle with bevel gears in the king pins, the steering system and the compressor drive being prime examples. The 3 speed transfer box can develop a self destructing vibration above 30mph and the twin plate clutch will stick together if you leave it parked up for more than a few days. Spares are difficult to find but the B81 should not be a problem as they were used in other vehicles. It looks like there will be a recovery in the Wiltshire Land Rovers sale at Melksham in the next few weeks. Have a read in the Martian section which includes a photo of my 10ton cargo that was disposed of in 1989 for £1400 with just 1200 miles on the clock. http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?8975-Leyland-Martian-Gallery Edited March 19, 2015 by radiomike7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samro Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 Wiltshire Land Rovers sale ace, I will take a look! im not in a position to buy a "live" truck yet as I need to get my C+E so can't drive it!!! Im hoping to take that in October. are the transfer box and main box Martian bespoke parts? i would like a Wrecker, the crane would be very useful, plus the idea of a 40 ton winch is quite appealing over kill but to have that capability in an off road platform would be very useful.. is there a separate aux power-pack that runs the ancillaries or are they all run off the B81? there some very smart truck in the gallery! can imagine the chap who took the crew cab "off Road" must have been pretty brave! I bet there scary as hell on anything other than a flat field! the CofG must be pretty high? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) IIRC the transfer is unique and the 4 speed main 'box is a Leyland part. REME were issued with recovery vehicles not wreckers!! The 2 speed main winch is 15 ton which can be used with a snatch block and return to the vehicle for 40ton pulls. There is a small capstan winch to draw the main cable out. The gun tractor/cargo versions are fitted with a vertical spindle Scammell type winch circa 15 tons but with a 450ft cable. The hydraulic pump runs from a PTO, no separate power pack. Edited March 20, 2015 by radiomike7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samro Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 sorry recovery vehicle is the body type im after. 20 Ton, i see, i had read it as 40t single line strait pull.. is the hydraulic system all off the shelf? im guessing with a bespoke transfer box and it being a problem at road speeds [35-40mph] im guessing you need to low loader the Truck if you going any great distance? what's your experience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 im guessing with a bespoke transfer box and it being a problem at road speeds [35-40mph] im guessing you need to low loader the Truck if you going any great distance? what's your experience? Just leave early and take your time, they are easy to drive and no wider than a modern LGV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke7 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Get something smaller and fit big winch to it maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samro Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 not really the winch im after, its the Truck itself, ive read a bit about to few different exmod lorries and quite like the idear of owning/ rebuilding one.. ive now been looking at and am still reading the "Leyland Martian Gallery" as suggested buy @radiomike7 and im more convinced than ever.. practically at the end of the day its a peace of motor heritage that I can own and enjoy I would look to make all the bells and whistles work going forward but its not actually being bought to do a job.. that being said should tasks arise.. like bogged combines ect.. ive gotton more interested now, were in the process of rebuilding a very early Fordson Major and this is going to include a rework of the hydraulic system so I shall be taking lesson learn forward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attleej Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Sam, I operated a Leyland Martian recovery vehicle at 240 Sqn at Barnet for many years and so I have a few observations. First of all the winch. Its maximum single line pull is 15 tons. The minimum breaking load of the issued rope was 32 tons. With a 3 : 1 it will pull 45 tons and this is the limitation of the earth anchor at the rear. However, 45 tons is a hell of a pull. Better still it is an exceedingly good winch and in my experience if it did not want to work it was because I was doing something wrong! The rope would always lay on nicely and it had a capstan winch to pull out the main winch rope. A similar, or the same, winch was fitted to the MkIII Antar and that was rated at 20 tons. The crane can be operated at the same time as the winch since both are hydraulically powered. By comparison the AEC could not conveniently jib and winch. In the 80's I thought you would not look stupid if you had the recovery gear of a Leyland on the back of a 6 X 6 Foden. Radiomike7 is correct about the problem of exceeding 30 MPH causing serious aux gear box failure. This problem did not seem to affect the cargo versions. I would recommend fitting an intermediate bearing about 18" away from the output from the aux G box. This would stop the prop shaft whip from hurting the aux gear box. The B81 engine is a lovely engine in the right vehicle eg a Stolly but it has not got enough guts for such a heavy vehicle. On some occasions I was grossing 44 tons with a 6 1/4 litre petrol engine (kerb weight is about 21 to 22 tons). Fuel consumption with petrol would be about 3 MPG but I think that it is very unlikely that you would find a petrol engine recovery vehicle. The engine and its fan make a fab noise! The weak points were: the electrics, I regularly needed to use the starting handle when the starter motor would cut out. The power steering pipe on the right would regularly break. The aforementioned aux box. I never had a problem with the clutch sticking but I was using it every other week end. The brakes were not very good and this was made worse by the small capacity engine. It was certainly great fun to drive. One year 240 and 215 Sqns wre deploying to BAOR via the autobahn. My mate Drew from 215 could not keep up with me although we both had Leyland Martians. I suggested that we swopped vehicles and he still could not keep up with me! He was not a happy bunny but very curious. I then explained to him about the three speed aux box with an intermediate gear. This enables each of the 4 main gears to be split. Therefor I had 8 gears and he only had four! 'Double sticking' is a very odd arrangement for what is basically a 10 tonner. You would normally only expect to find such an arrangement on a tank transporter which needs it due to the very low power to weight ratio. If anyone can suggest any other logic for a three speed aux box in the Martian I would be very interested to hear. If you drive one of these vehicles on a motorway or dual carriage way it is essential to use beacon lights as other road users will not be expecting you be going so slowly. We have an original one at Bordon that I can show you around if you are interested. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samro Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 "Radiomike7 is correct about the problem of exceeding 30 MPH causing serious aux gear box failure. This problem did not seem to affect the cargo versions. I would recommend fitting an intermediate bearing about 18" away from the output from the aux G box. This would stop the prop shaft whip from hurting the aux gear box." this is a worry, partly because I think its going to be dificult to source spares in the event of a problem and partly because I would very much like to attend events that may well be many miles from home [not often the low mpg will see to that! £££] are you discribing this sort of thing? :- http://www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/build/2006/08/2006_08_07_Bearing_Mount.jpg has anyone tried to resolve this in this way? Regarding it being underpowered I was unaware of this, im not planing to do any road towing of any great weight however, there may come a point when I would need to tow a trailer with another truck on it or small ish [3ton] tractor.. I though this would be no problem? being unable to use LOW in the road owing to the diff ratio's being different does this mean im going to be left struggling for power? keep in mind most trips I will do even the shor ones mean a clim up on to the Cotswolds via fish hill or birdlip... im a little disillusioned.. I really wanted to keep the B81 despite its thirst.. what about upping the compression? or making other changes to the power pack? Thanks for all the info, this is very interesting stuff, talk about picking the right place to post!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the correction John, the Chertsey book gives the winch capacity in lb/f and my mental arithmetic is not what it used to be.:nut: I found a good in service photo of a Leyland heavy, probably grossing a similar weight to the one you mentioned: To put things into perspective that outfit is effectively powered by two bored out Champ engines nailed together. Off topic but any updates on the Antar refurb? Mike Edited March 20, 2015 by radiomike7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attleej Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Sam, The photo shows exactly the set up required. When you look at the prop shaft on a Martian recovery you will see that it is very long. It would be quite easy to put in a short prop shaft and an intermediate bearing. The only reason why I did not do it to my one at the TA was because it was not allowed! It would be an unauthorised modification which they would get very pear shaped about. With this mod she would run at close to 40 MPH. On performance, do not get too worried! I said that it has not got a lot of guts like an AEC which has the benefit of an 11.3 litre diesel engine but is actually only 144 BHP. The snag with the Martian was that there was only one gear for sticky muddy cross country and that was first and low. It would either get through the bad patch or get stuck with nothing in between. If you slackened off the gas in order to regain traction, the engine would stall. With an AEC or a Roller it will just grunt and pull you out. For what you want to do, you would be using a sledge hammer to crack a nut (which is fine) and you certainly would not need low ratio on a metalled road. With anything less than about 8 tons you would not know it was there. If you were going up Birdlip, having an unladen Bedford TM on the back would not make much difference. It would still be very slow and use several gallons of petrol! If you needed to tow a loaded tank transporter up Birdlip you would definitely want to get a good video clip! As for the engine. A B81 is a lovely engine. A straight eight Rolls! What more could one want! Properly set up she should be sweet as a nut. You would need to do something about the diaphragm on the David fuel pump because it will not tolerate the modern petrols with ethanol. I am sure others on the forum can advise. I would not advise messing around with the comp ratios etc. My only complaint about the B81 is that it is not really suitable for such a heavy vehicle. If you found a Martian with a good B81 engine I think that you would have to consider what to do very carefully. If you stuck with the B81 it would be expensive to run. However, even when I was a junior employee of Smiths Industries I found the money for the petrol for the Antar at 1 1/2 to 2 MPG (I changed it because it kept fouling its plugs due to oil). If you looked at the cost of going say 30 miles it is going to use 20 gallons of petrol, about £100. But what fun! If you converted it to diesel you might halve the fuel consumption but the 30 mile trip would still cost £50. If you did 1000 miles in a year (which would be quite a lot for a Martian) a diesel would save £870 but would still cost about the same amount in Diesel. Fitting a diesel requires a huge amount of effort plus the cost of the engine itself. You might well be better working for someone else to get the cash for the petrol. So work out the figures! I hope this is useful. John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antar Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I had a very nice Martian Recovery for a few years, it had been retrofitted with a Perkins V8 540 diesel engine. Would just about get itself to 30mph on a flat motorway...if it even saw a slight incline you were down below 20mph. Once towed a Scammell Explorer from Preston down the M6 to Stockport... at one point on the motorway we were down below 5mph... very scary and never again. Also had a Artillery Tractor with the B81 petrol...possibly the one you mentioned being off roaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughman Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Is that an Allis Chalmers MWT on the back of the trailer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Honestly, a Martian would be a cool project and a good toy to own. I'd like one That said, I wouldn't bother changing the engine for the reasons stated, as well as the fact that the B81 would also keep it original. Too many people convert vehicles to diesels without matching the power curve and rev range of the original engine and end up with something that is not well suited to use, with the added cost and effort of the conversion not offsetting the fuel savings anyway. Getting more power out of a B81 can be a bit tricky, as they are fairly uprated from the original B80 design already and tend to run quite hot, although I don't know what the radiator in a Martian is like. If I were looking to extract more power from one, without worrying too much about originality, I'd fit a small turbo pushing around 5 PSI through it. In any case, fitting an electric fuel pump and electronic ignition makes a big difference to the B series. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billruston Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 V8 Perkins, all bark no bol#%s!! If i was to ever deseilise it would be a L10 cummins, very good & Powerfull lump! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antar Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 V8 Perkins, all bark no bol#%s!! If i was to ever deseilise it would be a L10 cummins, very good & Powerfull lump! The perkins v8 was chosen for its high rpm (2800) you have to remember that the Martian drive train was matched to a petrol engine which revved to 3750 rpm, difficult to match to any diesel, guess the L10 would top out at 2300 rpm giving a max road speed less than 30mph ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attleej Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Dear All, Out of interest, Andy Long's Martian recovery has a Cummins and Fuller RTO gear box which has overdrive. That would take 2200 revs to 2933 which is getting there. The original (and horrible) 4 speed synchro box would have been direct drive top. However, he did have to stretch the front a bit to get it all in. In Dorset (I think) someone has one with a Volvo engine and presumably an overdrive box. One problem with fitting an engine with far more grunt than original is that the transmission won't take it if worked fully loaded. Therefore you see plenty of Scammell Explorers with very nice conversions and yet we know that problems arose with Constructors (with a very similar clutch / gear box arrangement) when running with just slightly more powerful engines. The Leyland Martian Arty tractor looks lovely! I just love the crew cab. In the TA when I was using the Scammell Explorer to support 10 tonners I always dreamed of a Leyland Arty tractor and dummy axle. That was until I got issued a Martian Recovery! John John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Having sat in Andy's Martian during a painfully slow 50 mile suspended tow home with my Explorer and living van, I have to say that although the fueling is turned right down to save the drive train, the Cummins conversion must have improved power but hasn't done much to help when loaded, but I suppose top speed will be higher when running light. He was giving the gearbox no mercy to keep it all rolling with all the drag. The way the bonnet almost passed over the top of waiting cars at junctions in Tunbridge Wells was highly entertaining but that *&^%$ exhaust stack is a serious instrument of torture! Agree about the looks of the Arty Tractor John, it was one of those that first brought the wonderful world of military heavies to my attention at Slab Common many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashcollection Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Dear All, Out of interest, Andy Long's Martian recovery has a Cummins and Fuller RTO gear box which has overdrive. That would take 2200 revs to 2933 which is getting there. The original (and horrible) 4 speed synchro box would have been direct drive top. However, he did have to stretch the front a bit to get it all in. In Dorset (I think) someone has one with a Volvo engine and presumably an overdrive box. One problem with fitting an engine with far more grunt than original is that the transmission won't take it if worked fully loaded. Therefore you see plenty of Scammell Explorers with very nice conversions and yet we know that problems arose with Constructors (with a very similar clutch / gear box arrangement) when running with just slightly more powerful engines. The Leyland Martian Arty tractor looks lovely! I just love the crew cab. In the TA when I was using the Scammell Explorer to support 10 tonners I always dreamed of a Leyland Arty tractor and dummy axle. That was until I got issued a Martian Recovery! John John Hi Ive got the one from Dorset with the Volvo engine, seems ok, we haven't done any road runs so not had the chance to open her up to find out though, but round the fields its sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samro Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Right gonna have a look at the Recovery in wilts, don't want to tread on anyone's toes hear as you have all been very help full!! its unlikely im going to submit a tender as I think the trucks too cut about, gonna take a look see, im trying to get an idea of initial layout, so kinda treating it as a feasibility study... 2 Questions have already arisen. 1. what are transport cost for like? ive hired trailers historically but this is a new ball game @ 10Ton! 2. The RR B81, I have found parts on the web no problem but are complete engines about? ive seen B80's but would want an 81. I have seen threads hear with wreaked Martian's but most lack the original engine, how ever im assuming that these could be potential donna's for other transmission components? Cheers For any advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHIZZ505 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 not really the winch im after, its the Truck itself, ive read a bit about to few different exmod lorries and quite like the idear of owning/ rebuilding one.. ive now been looking at and am still reading the "Leyland Martian Gallery" as suggested buy @radiomike7 and im more convinced than ever.. practically at the end of the day its a peace of motor heritage that I can own and enjoy I would look to make all the bells and whistles work going forward but its not actually being bought to do a job.. that being said should tasks arise.. like bogged combines ect.. ive gotton more interested now, were in the process of rebuilding a very early Fordson Major and this is going to include a rework of the hydraulic system so I shall be taking lesson learn forward... Hi Samro, if you'd like to come and have a cuppa some time I've a Martian artillery tractor, and in the next few weeks I'll be picking up my Recovery to bring back home.... I'm only a skip from Tewkesbury, Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craftsmanx Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 sorry recovery vehicle is the body type im after. 20 Ton, i see, i had read it as 40t single line strait pull.. is the hydraulic system all off the shelf? im guessing with a bespoke transfer box and it being a problem at road speeds [35-40mph] im guessing you need to low loader the Truck if you going any great distance? what's your experience? We drove a Leyland Martian Recy and 18 gun tractors from Pembroke Dock to Soltau in about 1962 an dthe only real problems we had were with ignition cables that had perished and consequently broke up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor pitman Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]113267[/ATTACH]The M5 Martian lives on....seen here a few days ago. Unless anyone knows better I think this has not moved for at least 15 years. Sadly nature is reclaiming the truck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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