nz2 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Yes it is the silver fern. Photos all up of NZ support vehicles are not common. I have found photos of two variations to shape and colour. One has a white background with a black fern the other a light coloured fern on a dark background. Suggest here a new thread covering insignia for vehicles of the period. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Am I missing something from in an earlier thread when I question as to the use of the NZ markings for this truck. Did this particular truck ( chassis number) actually carry the military numbers as seen in the photo, or is another less direct linkage to the NZ troops. I guess I am testing the providence of the case. Are there records from WW1 available to identify a chassis to military numbers and to units etc? I have been searching photographs looking for a RFC Leyland with any Kiwi markings for use on Karl's truck here, and like wise a set of numbers for my Thornycroft. It is nice to see the recognition of the role of us colonial troops in the war, and would certainly be a change to otherwise British dominance of the fleet( For the few military trucks being displayed of the time frame). In saying that what is the colour scheme and markings on the Autocar? Doug:-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 It is nice to see the recognition of the role of us colonial troops in the war, and would certainly be a change to otherwise British dominance of the fleet( For the few military trucks being displayed of the time frame). In saying that what is the colour scheme and markings on the Autocar? Doug:-\ Whilst we have not yet decided what markings it will carry, it would be nice to recognise our colonial cousins. There does not seem to be any cross-reference information available between vehicle identification numbers and their allocation, (Unless you know better, Roy?) and this photo and one other are the only ones we have seen with the NZ marking. Is there an officially recognised version of the fern leaf or do you think this signwriter just had a good stab at one? Our Autocar has a 'made-up' livery using our best judgement. We believe that those used in France were the water tank variants and that the truck bodied versions went to East Africa. Very few photos of Autocars have come to light and no truck-bodied ones with any markings. We have seen pictures of those of the Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade with a triangle containing three 'C's and the water tankers with a crescent containing three stars. We are certain that ours operated as a tanker within the British Army although the Australian War Graves Commission had some after the war. With our limited knowledge, we painted it the standard khaki colour and added a number which we found stamped on the front left dumb-iron. (The chassis number is on the rear cross-member on an Autocar and different from this one). If anyone can show us a picture with markings on, we should be very pleased indeed. Steve :confused::confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Steve has made up the scuttle-mounting, hood bow brackets this weekend. The originals would have been drop forgings so he has tried to replicate their appearance. He started by rescuing some steel from a skip and turning the threaded ends. Then he had to turn the main length down on a taper. He did this by setting the tailstock of the lathe over and turning between centres using a drive dog and catch plate. Next, he dressed the ends with the angle grinder and cut the back plates out before finally welding, dressing back and painting. The overall effect is quite pleasing but once mounted on the scuttle, they will provide another hazard for unprotected heads! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) I think the "1" indicates the first NZ Brigade of the NZ Division. Not sure what colour the leaf would be or the roundel. Any thoughts... Tim, the attached list of RASC symbols came from a document in the IWM via a friend of a fellow contributor: it suggests that the fern leaf on a dark background represents 1st New Zealand Division; a sun rise containing a fern leaf representing 2nd New Zealand Division. It is quite likely that the RASC continued on from the ASC. I don't think the circle is that important - unless it's a black background, in which case it's a way of contrasting with the OD on the vehicle. That said, have you see this month's MMI (Feb 2011), p.7 ?! (For those who study these things, I'm not sure what DSC and ASP mean.) Edited January 9, 2011 by Runflat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Larkin Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 There does not seem to be any cross-reference information available between vehicle identification numbers and their allocation, (Unless you know better, Roy?) Steve :confused::confused: I've not yet come across anything that identifies vehicles allocated. I have seen a register of vehicles, almost all Daimlers of various sizes which gives WD Number, date acquired and where acquired from. It's not possible to identify the individual vehicles before their WD Number. It is however a WD book, which suggests there should be more of them somewhere. I can't imagine the military not having detailed records of the vehicles they acquired and where they were allocated to and in theory if there is a register it should be a massive document but so far no sign of it and I believe several people have looked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The diagram of the fern leaf appears out of proportion. It looks in this case like a thin tree. The insignia as seen on the side of the vehicle is more true to shape, although a little too broad. I have yet to come across in any photos of vehicles showing the insignia of the 2nd division. For Tim, a photo of a few more Dennis trucks, showing a numerical insignia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 My understanding is that there was no second NZ Division until WW2. All references to WW1 relate to the "New Zealand Division" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 So I was otherwise looking for invisible photos of an non-existent division. Those markings won't be going onto my truck! But then if I did who would know and be able to tell me it was wrong. What a story line one could spin. Almost in the realm of top secret type spy stories stuff. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Just to show that we are keeping Father busy: No - not a magic mushroom farm! Because of the difficulty in getting Imperial Coach Bolts in this country now, these are 3/8" UNC Carriage Bolts brought in from the USA. We have adequate 3/8" Whitworth Square Nuts which will fit. The impressed lettering that was on top of the bolts has been filed off so that the heads are left plain and the bolts then primed so that when they are finally fitted, they should be quite indistinguishable from old British ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minesweeper Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The grey floor of the body "tub" is an undercoat - it has still to be finished in the same brown/green as the sides of the body. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asciidv Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The impressed lettering that was on top of the bolts has been filed off I hope with the Powerfile! Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Our good friend Andy has drawn up the NZ emblem for us for the signwriter. He has done a cracking job: Just as a reminder, this is what we were aiming for: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Regards the silver fern, the fronds of the leaf are much finer than your signwriter has produced. What you have as individual leaves should be about half the size in width, and the angle is wrong. I will go out latter and photograph a silver fern for you to work from. Considering the exacting nature of the rest of the lorry, I would not like to see it spoiled by the wrong emblem. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Hi Doug. Yes, certainly it is not an accurate representation of the actual fern leaf. However, it is based on the best information that we have available as to the logo used on the lorry which is this cigarette card of all things. So far, we have not found any official representation to copy. It is just unfortunate that neither our photo above or 'Runflat's' document is crisp enough to blow up and use. If you do find an official diagram of the roundel or, better still, a clear photograph of one on a lorry, then we will be very pleased indeed as we have, today, decided that these are the markings we will use. One less decision left to make! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels v Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Just a quick question, where there a dash with instruments in the dennis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 No dash, but an oil pressure gauge on the scuttle. Now that we have agreed on doing the fern (although we are still tinkering with the template), we are thinking of putting the club marking on it for food/forage transportation which should look like this: Any thoughts as to colour of the marking? Thanks Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Received my Automobile a couple of days ago, a Great War Dennis chassis is shown on near the sea in Donegal, says it has been there uncovered for 15 years. Looks in good shape for this age of lorry. Is this one known about? its looking for someone to recover it! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Another one! i will have to go and take a look in Smiths tomorrow. I expect Ben knows about it. Engine? Gearbox? Diff? what else was there? i am a bit worried when you say "near the sea". How near the sea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Just a quick question, where there a dash with instruments in the dennis? Hi Niels. As Tim says, instrumentation is limited. This is the back of the scuttle/dash panel complete with oil pressure gauge and timing indicator arrow. There is nothing else except a magneto off switch! The basic rule is that if you can hear your passenger talking, you are going too slowly and if your eyes are watering, it is too fast! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Another one! i will have to go and take a look in Smiths tomorrow. I expect Ben knows about it. Engine? Gearbox? Diff? what else was there? i am a bit worried when you say "near the sea". How near the sea? Says 'complete with steering mechanism and part of the diff' Picture shows the chassis which looks very straight and sound. Front and rear axles wheels, springs and original mountings and greasers some brake linkages and looks like brake shoes Unfortunately no engine or gearbox! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels v Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 well when it simple there is not much that can go wrong. What sort of speed are you expecting it being able to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What sort of speed are you expecting it being able to do? We hope to cruise at 15-16 mph with a maximum of about 18mph. It should have a governor to limit it to 14mph but I am not planning to make that although all of the linkage and mechanism is there. With only two wheel brakes, this is quite fast enough! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 We found we could cruise into town for events at about 30 kph. It was the hard suspension and bumps that one has to be wary of. The whole vehicle seemed to bounce and shudder with each bump and change direction. On an uneven section of seal much of our side of the road was utilized. Trying to keep to the left to allow other traffic to pass meant you got more of the uneven road surface. When things do not work it can be at embarrassing moments. Was at a show with a load of people and it would not start.Much fiddling and a strip down of the magneto . An older local mechanic we know offered to help but upon seeing the mag came out with the expression; " My father as an apprentice worked with magnetos, so I hope it's hereditary!" We ending up towing it home with a tractor and fixed bar. Doug:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenHawkins Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Another one! i will have to go and take a look in Smiths tomorrow. I expect Ben knows about it. Engine? Gearbox? Diff? what else was there? i am a bit worried when you say "near the sea". How near the sea? I have seen photos of this one before. It is just a bare chassis which is extremely thin in a number of places. I believe it is actually a mid twenties 2.5 ton model on solid tyres (open propshaft not torque tube). The only part of the differential mechanism it has is one half shaft and the steering only has the track rod. If however someone would want to take it on I have a complete back axle, gearbox and propshaft for this model. I can probably also make available a selector gate and brake/gear levers. I also have a radiator which could be used as a pattern, pedals and a bulkhead brackets and possibly some more bits if I ever make it to the back of the shed again! However I think this particular chassis is beyond repair as is often the case with this model! Ben PS. Keep up the good work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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