question First MV?

[winchman]

Hello

I often pop by and read as I am big Scammell fan but not done much posting so heres my first question?

I want to teach our 15 year old son to drive as part of some lads and Dads days out as its such a difficult age to keep them occupied at.

I have the land sorted, it even has a small 4x4 course I have the long term loan of some storage.

So I was thinking of buying a cheap 4x4 but then had the idea of a military vehicle, something like an RL or smaller, so any ideas and what would it cost me?

It just needs to be cheap and run, I cant afford to start major works but don't mind a bit of welding and painting as this would be part of the fun, we once had a very early Bedford CF and loved attending shows with it so I would also like to attend some local shows.

[arcot1751]

Series Land Rover fits the bill, cheap spares, cheapish to buy, easily maintained and great fun off road. Start to get bigger stuff and parts can be dear and then there are the higher running costs involved. A LWB Series 3 FFR is a nice entry level truck and probably the cheapest MV option

[Lauren Child]

RB44s are reasonably priced at the moment as a fair number have been made available.

 

At the end of the day though, I'd go with whatever takes your fancy. I had all sorts of plans for my first MV that went out of the window when I saw the CMP. It's not practical or easy, but it does put a big smile on my face when I see it (and a bigger smile when I go somewhere and get home again )

[Billruston]

Early post war Lorrys for me, RLs austin k9's fairly cheap and cheap on spares, I'm 19 and my first mv was a K9 great lorrys

[Tony B]

Even series Land Rovers are staring to go up in price. My answer is (Obviously) A Dodge Wepons Carrier. One young lad I taught to drive on mine is now flying jets around the world. (Gawd help us! ) For fun purposes you can get a Discovery 200 or 300 tdi cheap, so if they bash it about, so what?

[Starfire]

I'm in two minds about this one, myself. Because you listed cost as an important consideration, I would agree that a Land Rover is a good choice, but if you like something else better, like an RL, then get that instead. Finding money can be a bit of a pain, but if you have your heart set on something and you have to work for it, the enjoyment that it brings can be worth it (spoken by the (now) broke owner an Alvis Saracen )

 

Cheers,

Terry

[winchman]

Thanks

I am 50 soon and felt like it would be a treat for me too.

I have spent the last years or so slowly selling all the junk in my garage, this is slowly building me a 4x4 pot.

I feel the series Land rovers are over priced the Disco offers much better value.

I now need to sell this

It will give me a good chunk towards the purchase price

[winchman]

Now a few questions

Could some one briefly correct me?

Tax

Free if its before Feb 1973?

Red diesel

Only if its a mobile crane?

Licence

Passed in 1986 I think so ok up to 7,5 tons?

Petrol engine = singke figures MPG?

Diesel 15 MPG?

MOT well you tell me as I am confused?

Insurance I have budgeted for about £200

Recovery, how do I get it home when I break it? I do know a coach operator who is helpful so he might help?

[arcot1751]

Now a few questions

Could some one briefly correct me?

Tax

Free if its before Feb 1973?

Red diesel

Only if its a mobile crane?

Licence

Passed in 1986 I think so ok up to 7,5 tons?

Petrol engine = singke figures MPG?

Diesel 15 MPG?

MOT well you tell me as I am confused?

Insurance I have budgeted for about £200

Recovery, how do I get it home when I break it? I do know a coach operator who is helpful so he might help?

 

Red diesel IF the tanks are drained before road use or if you can legitimately prove " limited use " ie under a certain number of miles a trip to and from land owned or rented by you. as per some agricultural vehicles. Licence should be fine up to 7.5t. MPG yes figures sound about right depending again on use expect less if off roading hard. Classic policies may or may not cover you off road so make certain before purchase. Recovery is free with some classic policies BUT there is often a restriction on size/weight of vehicle so worth checking. Buying Red diesel can be a problem now with plenty of forms to fill out at some garages but again you may only use this on the road VERY short distances unless you are engaged in permitted works such as agriculture.

[winchman]

Red diesel IF the tanks are drained before road use or if you can legitimately prove " limited use " ie under a certain number of miles a trip to and from land owned or rented by you. as per some agricultural vehicles. Licence should be fine up to 7.5t. MPG yes figures sound about right depending again on use expect less if off roading hard. Classic policies may or may not cover you off road so make certain before purchase. Recovery is free with some classic policies BUT there is often a restriction on size/weight of vehicle so worth checking. Buying Red diesel can be a problem now with plenty of forms to fill out at some garages but again you may only use this on the road VERY short distances unless you are engaged in permitted works such as agriculture.

 

Thanks

The land is 10 miles from home but only 6 or 8 depending on the final storage location. Shows due to cost I would only really attend local ones.

How could it be classed as agricultural?

My ideal vehicle would be something RL sized with a box on the back so we could camp in it.

If money was no object I would have one with a Hiab so I could have a flat bed or camper but dream on with my budget.

[arcot1751]

The term "agricultural" use has been changed to "limited" use now, many people use various machines/vehicles in agriculture/forestry not just tractors but quads, Land Rovers, Uni Mogs etc. I think the mileage involved would stop you using this anyway. I have just bought a really nice 109 FFR Land Rover for around £2000 it is a proper MV so usable for shows etc and again they have the advantage of cheap spares being readily available. Yes the prices ARE going up but that means if you looked after yours there is no reason why in a couple of years it won't be worth the same or more than you paid for it. Get an ambulance version and you have a camper Fit a 200tdi engine which is easy peasey and you have the advantage of diesel mpg too.

[winchman]

The term "agricultural" use has been changed to "limited" use now, many people use various machines/vehicles in agriculture/forestry not just tractors but quads, Land Rovers, Uni Mogs etc. I think the mileage involved would stop you using this anyway. I have just bought a really nice 109 FFR Land Rover for around £2000 it is a proper MV so usable for shows etc and again they have the advantage of cheap spares being readily available. Yes the prices ARE going up but that means if you looked after yours there is no reason why in a couple of years it won't be worth the same or more than you paid for it. Get an ambulance version and you have a camper Fit a 200tdi engine which is easy peasey and you have the advantage of diesel mpg too.

I have had Land Rovers in the past and to be honest whilst I am a big fan I have always fancied a Scammell explorer but unless I win the lottery that isn't going to happen.

I was just hoping I could find a usable 4x4 military truck for my budget of £2000 but its looking unlikely.

[Sean N]

If you're thinking lads & dads or learning to drive / first vehicle for your son, you should probably think carefully about suitability. Owning an old vehicle or old MV is, frankly, a great laugh, they always attract interest and comments, and I always enjoy driving mine.

 

However, even the easier ones to drive are by no means comparable to modern vehicles. You have to contend with crash gearboxes, heavy brakes and steering, noise, too much heat in summer and too much cold in winter, and so on. Some people will jump in one and love it, some will jump in one and it'll put them off for life. Which is your son? That might affect whether you buy a vehicle like a series Landrover or something like an RL. Don't let a fascination with huge vehicles steer you into buying a white elephant (and I speak as an owner of RLs and K9s, among other vehicles).

 

Do you want to work on it with your son? If so, consider smaller, easier to work on vehicles, or for the larger vehicles, something that is relatively easy to access and get parts for. As Arcot says, Series prices may be on the up but that means buying something that will probably appreciate if you don't kill it, and they are fun, easy to work on and drive. I'd try for something unusual in a series 2 though. There are other vehicles around or between Landy and RL size; Munga, Haflinger, Unimog 400 series, Austin K9 etc. etc. There's some great WW2 stuff but it's starting to fetch serious money now.

 

Bear in mind a heavy camper body will significantly affect the off-road ability if that's what you want to do with it.

 

Red Diesel is only legal in certain exempted vehicles. One of these is vehicles used on private land, but there is no 'six mile rule', and you'd certainly be in problems if caught going into a show running red diesel - and I have seen HMRC checking the tanks of every diesel vehicle going into certain shows. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-75-fuel-for-road-vehicles/excise-notice-75-fuel-for-road-vehicles. It can only be classed as agricultural - or whatever - if the body type (and often, use) is appropriate.

 

Tax free before 1 January 1974 but this is a 40 year rolling exemption, so from 1 April 2015 it'll become 1 January 1975.

 

Your 1986 licence should be good up to 7.5 Tonnes GROSS weight for a goods vehicle; so an RL isn't exempt because it weighs 4 tonnes, as its gross weight is 8.8 tonnes. There are exemptions for certain types of vehicles and for goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960 used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer.

 

Fuel consumption depends on vehicle. There are plenty of diesels which only do single figures mpg; there are plenty of petrol vehicles which do well into double figures. Consumption depends on use; off-roading will really kill it. My experience is 12 - 14 mpg for an RL, 15 - 18 mpg for a K9, 5-6 mpg for either off road.

 

MoT depends on vehicle & other considerations. VERY roughly speaking, if it's not a goods vehicle it has to have a Class 4 MoT, if it's a goods vehicle it has to have a Class 7 MoT or goods vehicle test; unless it's exempt for some reason. Exemptions are complex and there are a lot of them so best to discuss the detail elsewhere, but the one you'll come across most commonly is the exemption for pre-1960 vehicles. Note exemptions don't remove your obligation to have the vehicle roadworthy, so all you save is the hassle and cost of taking it for test, and arguably it puts more onus on you to do the checks.

 

Insurance is VERY cheap but variable depending on vehicle. In my experience £200 is more than enough. Your mileage may vary.

 

Recovery for large vehicles can be a pain. Fortunately some people are stepping into the breach. Often you can get recovery with insurance, or there are operators such as Autohome who will do it separately. Keep on top of the maintenance and you're unlikely to need it.

[arcot1751]

I have had Land Rovers in the past and to be honest whilst I am a big fan I have always fancied a Scammell explorer but unless I win the lottery that isn't going to happen.

I was just hoping I could find a usable 4x4 military truck for my budget of £2000 but its looking unlikely.

 

Bigger stuff is maybe a little dearer than your budget now days but never say never something may come up. As I say my Landie cost me near your budget well I took it in part ex to be honest but that is what I allowed on it. I won't be keeping the FFR but as my wife says " It's green, you had to have it " ! Good luck if you can't find something via this site I will be surprised

[paulob1]

I think 2 k for anything large is unrealistic but a zil 131 truck is your answer..cheapish, easy to maintain, easy to drive, excellent brakes, 8/9 mpg. Off road she is a serious player. You will struggle to break them..I have a few of these and to be honest there is no truck out there built in the 60's that I would say is a patch on the zil131...it had to be good they built it for nigh on 30 years, without change, (they increase the compression ration towards the end to allow for modern fuels) and built nearly 1,000,000..it was designed in the late 50's prototyped in the early 60s and put into production from the mid 60's.

 

they can be off roaded even with a camper body on the back....I know I have done it.

 

PM me if you want one...but sadly 2k wont get you one. Scammels great too never had one except you could call the DAF DROPS a scammel in all but name...

[winchman]

I think 2 k for anything large is unrealistic but a zil 131 truck is your answer..cheapish, easy to maintain, easy to drive, excellent brakes, 8/9 mpg. Off road she is a serious player. You will struggle to break them..I have a few of these and to be honest there is no truck out there built in the 60's that I would say is a patch on the zil131...it had to be good they built it for nigh on 30 years, without change, (they increase the compression ration towards the end to allow for modern fuels) and built nearly 1,000,000..it was designed in the late 50's prototyped in the early 60s and put into production from the mid 60's.

 

they can be off roaded even with a camper body on the back....I know I have done it.

 

PM me if you want one...but sadly 2k wont get you one. Scammels great too never had one except you could call the DAF DROPS a scammel in all but name...

 

Thanks

I do like the Zil very much but to be honest I only have 2k and I cant see that changing for many years, the house family etc come first so you can imagine its took a long time to save the 2k, I have a few odds and ends left in the garage to sell but I cant see them achieving much, so it might be the end of the MV dream for us LOL

[winchman]

Bigger stuff is maybe a little dearer than your budget now days but never say never something may come up. As I say my Landie cost me near your budget well I took it in part ex to be honest but that is what I allowed on it. I won't be keeping the FFR but as my wife says " It's green, you had to have it " ! Good luck if you can't find something via this site I will be surprised

 

To be honest the more I look the further away it seams.

I did see a nice RL recovery truck in spain on Ebay but imagine the cost of bringing that home!

I am shocked at how expensive Land Rovers are these days it was only about 6 years ago I bought a non running series 3 out of someones garden for £50! £100 later and a new fuel tank it passed its MOT.

[winchman]

Sean N

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, some very interesting points.

[arcot1751]

You can have my Series 3 FFR if you want to go that route OR just hang fire and keep your eye out, SOMETHING will come up and usually when you least expect it. The thing is don't buy something that will spend most of its time parked because you can't get parts. All the stuff around 2k has been around awhile and WILL need regular servicing and repairs. Any MV will repay you with frustration, misery, but above all FUN and you will meet a lot of brilliant people along the way ! I always wanted a jeep and after leaving the Royal Artillery I was drawn to anything "green" I got one in the end and have never regretted it, on the way I bought an aero screen MW, several Land Rovers and a Green Goddess ( Just bought another one !). Before I got my Jeep I belonged to several Classic Car Clubs (too many rivet counters) I can honestly say the military scene is FULL of brilliant friendly people who will move heaven and earth to advise, ridicule and generally help whenever things go wrong. Best thing I ever did next to joining the RA in '74

[Sean N]

I think 2 k for anything large is unrealistic...

 

I'm not sure that's the case, depending on your definition of large - we've seen several RLs, for instance, go for around that figure recently.

 

... but a zil 131 truck is your answer...

 

Out of interest, how does a ZIL 131 compare with a Ural 4320?

[winchman]

You can have my Series 3 FFR if you want to go that route OR just hang fire and keep your eye out,

 

I belonged to several Classic Car Clubs (too many rivet counters)

 

Thanks Whilst I am a LR fan and our son loves the look of them I just fancy something different, 2K is a massive amount to me so I want to get my best compromise for it.

I too have been a victim of rivet counters, both when I had my stationary engine and classic camper van, I feel many people miss the point as I see our hobby as being about keeping old stuff on the road and having fun, whilst some people never use them and brag about how much they have spent.

 

I did once get some grief from a Military vehicle owner at Woodvale a few years ago for having a Camo Vitara but the rest of the group made me very welcome and it was a fun day out as it should be, the organiser just parked me on the end of the military row, next to a really nice bloke with a Bedford TM (? Big Square) camper he sparked my interest really. Oh and I cant ever forget the Bloke from Liverpool who made his own tank ! what a nice guy and what a home made tank!

[sirhc]

Last year I bought a Land Rover 110 from Withams through an online auction for less than £2000. It had a full tank of diesel, the battery was charged and it passed an MOT with no advisories straight away. It is a useable 4x4 military truck and you will get one for less than £2k if you are patient.

 

Nobody has mentioned RB44s, you may pay a bit more than £2k but you could get one which needs tidying through a tender fairly cheap too.

 

Chris

[Lauren Child]

Nobody has mentioned RB44s, you may pay a bit more than £2k but you could get one which needs tidying through a tender fairly cheap too.

 

Chris

 

 

I did!

 

There was a nice chap at the Duxford show a couple of years back who had one, and he loved it.

[winchman]

I will keep looking

[arcot1751]

Good luck, something will turn up I'm sure. It's best that you hang out for what you really want, because if you compromise as sure as eggs are eggs as soon as you've bought something the vehicle you REALLY wanted will turn up at a price you can afford !