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Graham

Live shooting SMLE and Webley

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Can anyone advise me please if there is a club/organisation in NW England that will provide live firing SMLE and/or Webley Mk5 for me to shoot? I have a collection of deactivated WW1 weapons and it would be very instructive if I could actually fire similar weapons. Obviously I would need some training and supervision and I am willing to pay for the experience. Any ideas?

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One of the chaps in our group has a live firing SMLE, will ask him about guest days etc. send me a PM and will put you in touch

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You will not be able to shoot a handgun as a 'guest' in the UK. All handguns are now classified as Section 5, prohibited weapons. Certain handguns may be owned/shot under heritage status, but this is highly controlled and only the gun owner may shoot the gun, ranges are locked down whilst shooting takes place and only the gun owners may be present.

 

I think you will even find it difficult to be able to shoot a full bore rifle as a guest, the law makes this very difficult now days.

 

If you are interested in owning/shooting handguns it is possible. If you can show you are a genuine collector of for example militaria, perhaps you have a vehicle, related deactivated guns etc, you should be able to make a case to collect related (heritage) guns. I now have a collection of ten handguns, the first two, 9mm Browning High Power and an Enfield .38/200 were justified as being part of a collection which comprised my Ferret armoured car. There are limited ranges where you can shoot these guns but if you are genuinely interested it is possible.

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The club I used to be in allowed guests to shoot any of the guns, after all, how do you know if shooting is the sport for you and which type of gun you would like to purchase.

 

I just spent all day last Saturday shooting a No.4, SKS, Mosin, 2 x M4 carbine, Sig 1911 (Didn't know Sig made a 1911) Sig .40, Glock 9mm, Remington 700, Ruger .357 and a ton of ammo. I was bushed but I did win a trophy so I did OK.

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The club I used to be in allowed guests to shoot any of the guns, after all, how do you know if shooting is the sport for you and which type of gun you would like to purchase.

 

I just spent all day last Saturday shooting a No.4, SKS, Mosin, 2 x M4 carbine, Sig 1911 (Didn't know Sig made a 1911) Sig .40, Glock 9mm, Remington 700, Ruger .357 and a ton of ammo. I was bushed but I did win a trophy so I did OK.

 

 

To be clear what you are saying - you claim as a non certificate holder (7.3) and a non club member to have shot handguns in England last Saturday, is that what you are claiming?

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Come to NZ for a holiday ,turn up to a Pistol club on a Sunday when they are doing classic pistol (usually once a month) someone will have a webley there , SMLEs no problem anytime and anywhere (within reason) as long you have a licence holder with you.

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hi, trophy 160, you are totally wrong to suggest that all pistols come under section 5 and are prohibited, i still have my fathers colt .455 on my firearms licence, the colt was taken by home office and fired and proofed and entered on my ticket. the reason i was able to keep it was because of the calibre .455 eley which was the version of the american .45, this ammunition is unobtainable and there other calibres which fall under the same category like .41, hope of interest, tony g.

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Hi Tony, let me clarify the situation and respond to your specific comments.

 

- All handguns (excluding muzzle loaders) ARE classified as section 5 but may under certain conditions be owned under section 7(1) or 7(3) exemption and shot under 7(3).

 

- You can own the .455 Colt as a section 7(1) as that calibre of ammunition has been determined as not readily available in the UK. If the actual gun was manufactured before Jan 1st 1919 then it may be kept at home but must not be fired. If it was manufactured after that date it could be held under 7(3) but must be stored at a site designated by the Secretary of State. Guns held under 7(3) may be fired by the owner.

 

- .41 falls into a different category and benefits from exemption under 58(2) of the 1968 Firearms Act, such guns may be owned without any form of firearms certificate if owned as a curio or ornament, they should be pre 1939. They must not be fired, but could be owned as a 7(3) gun when they could be fired but could not then be stored at home.

 

I repeat what I said earlier, in England, Wales and Scotland it is not possible for anyone (apart from Police/armed forces) to shoot handguns unless they are owned under the 7(3) exemptions. To do otherwise would be illegal and would expose yourself to prosecution. If you really shot a range of handguns last Saturday as you say and they are not owned by you as 7(3) then you did it, seemingly, illegally and frankly are very unwise to mention this on a public forum.

 

To those who are following this discussion, please don't take my word for what I have said, read this where what is/is not possible is clearly spelt out.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363016/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v10_-_Oct_2014.pdf

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I'm not in the UK at the moment, I'm in the USA doing weapon trials and development for the MOD. The comment was a side note and wasn't meant to be directly linked with club shooting in the UK.

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This is the section (below) of the 'Guidance on Fire Arms Licensing Law' that I think you are referring to. It states that possession of a section 7 gun would be committing an offence, however the under lined sentence would in my opinion (And many others) allow a guest to use.

 

My interpretation is, if a guest was shooting a Section 7 or 5 gun under the control of the owner (Possessor) at a designated range (Circumstances and Context), then no offence is committed. It's the same with section 5, re-enactors hire out section 5 guns for use in public displays and private skirmishes. The re-enactor rarely has section 5 authority but due to the circumstance and context, their use under supervision of the Sect 5 Auth holder is good reason.

 

As a civilian in the UK I've had the luck to shoot a lot of prohibited weapons under section 5 supervision with no issues.

 

9.22. The certificate allows the certificate holder to possess the firearm, not other people. Therefore, if other people possess the firearm, they would be committing an offence under section 1 of the 1968 Act. Whether or not handling constitutes possession will depend upon the circumstances and the context. The cases of Hall v Cotton 1987 and Woodage v Moss 1974 provide some principles as follows:

i. Possession can include having a firearm under your control without it being in your physical possession, or in your home e.g. if someone keeps a firearm in a locked cabinet in their relation’s house.

ii. The concept of possession includes both proprietary and custodial possession i.e. both ownership/control and physical possession. There is a distinction between custody and possession, so proprietary possession and custodial possession are two different concepts.

iii. A person can remain in "possession" of a firearm within the meaning of section 1 at a time when he is not physically in control of it.

iv. The concept of possession has never been exhaustively defined in English law. Its precise meaning can vary according to the context and according to the Act of parliament in which the question arises.

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It is very complicated. I still OWN that is have a legal claim to my pistols. I bever signed it away at collection. Though I cannot pocess them. Still write a letter to Home Office every year to find out if they are in good condition.

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It is very complicated. I still OWN that is have a legal claim to my pistols. I bever signed it away at collection. Though I cannot pocess them. Still write a letter to Home Office every year to find out if they are in good condition.

 

Do you ever get a reply?

 

when I handed over my hand guns I immediately bought 2 Lee Enfields I'd been after for a while. I even collected all the scrap shells and handed them in at £5 per 50.

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The view of the Heritage clubs/ranges I am aware of or have shot with is that it is not possible to have a guest shoot a 7(3) gun. There are two questions one needs to consider if you had 7.3 guns and were to consider inviting a guest to shoot

1. Do I really want to be the subject of a test case

2. Do we as a heritage club really want to jeopardise the very existence of heritage gun ownership by letting a guest shoot.

We don't have a labour government now but we know that party is very anti gun and were such a party to be in power they and the rest of the country would lose very little sleep in banning heritage guns, so it is really a matter of common sense.

The final point I would make is that the national shooting centre (Bisley) most definitely do not allow guests to shoot 7.3 guns, you may draw whatever conclusion you will from that.

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Do you ever get a reply?

 

when I handed over my hand guns I immediately bought 2 Lee Enfields I'd been after for a while. I even collected all the scrap shells and handed them in at £5 per 50.

 

 

Yes, apparently they are in secure storage.

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get on a flight to texas can personally recomend lone star gun range close to austin tx hand guns were 5 dollars to rent plus 9mm ammo was approx 40 cents each ,safety brief, drivers licence as id then shoot want u want without super vision which was a very positive thing over two days shot ppk 380 1911 45, 44 mag ,desert eagle 50 cal, 460 s&W,9mm glock 17,sks rifle couple of bolt action rifles etc over in the uk u need to be vetted to shoot ruddy 22 rimfire, and it aint worth the hassle!( closer to vegas barrat 50 cal sniper rifle was fun to fire if you have you will know what i mean!):D

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there was a episode of mud men where presenters were shooting rifles and ww1 machines guns in the uk dont know if military range or bisley? were they guests?

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Certain weapons on Section 5 certificates,which incidentally can include a blow gun used for darting animals, discharges noxious substance, the anisthetic in the dart, can be held for use in films and movies. They may be used provided the Certificate holder is present. Am Dram is also excluded from the VCR replicas. Back home life is much simpler, does it have a smooth bore? Then you need a Permit De Portage from the Parish Hall. Does it have a rifled barrel (Including air weapons) Then you need a Police certificate.

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