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Ferret B60 problims


Catch 22 LBDR

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My ferret keeps dying when on a road run after only a few hundred yards and is completely gutless.

 

The engine was rebuilt by a professional. It was striped down to its main component, eg the starter, manifolds etc were removed before he got it. The engine was honed ( and I think the head might have bean skimmed but I cant remember now ) new rings and head gasket were fitted and the main timing gear was replaced. The old timing gear had come loose and moved on it's shaft, as a result half of the gear was badly worn. The valves were ground and the oil pump given an inspection as parts of the timing gear looking tab were found in the sump. Nothing needed to be done to the crank shaft or other parts.

 

When the engine returned it was cleaned and painted. A new starter and generator were fitted. The distributor was fitted out with new spark plug leads,spark plugs, condenser and cap, but the points and roter arm were cleaned and reused. A new coil was also fitted. Nothing was done to the RF box, or oil pressure switch and most of the wiring was cleaned, tested and reused. The fuel pump and thermostat was tested, cleaned and refitted. The carb was sent to a specialist to be rebuilt. It also got a new temp sender and lead.The engine was fitted into the vehicle and connected to a new gearbox. The fan was rebuilt and the rad replaced.

 

The Ferret was 90% rebuilt/restored before the engine had its first test. After countless attempts to start the engine we decided it was a timing problem and the entire vehicle was brought back to the mechanic. He removed the timing gear, rocker cover and exhaust valve covers in order to time the engine. I do remember something at this point about the timing gear being one tooth out. After this the ferret ran fine, had plenty of power, would start easily etc. It was never as smooth as other ferrets I heard running, it was always a little lumpy.

 

After a few weeks, while on a short drive the vehicle died, thinking it was out of fuel I changed over to the reserve. The vehicle would travel 100 yards before it would die again. It was concluded that fuel starvation was the cause and sure enough the pipes were blocked. I cleaned out the pipes and filter with an air line and extensions were fitted to the tank banjo bolts. This didn't cure the problem. We guessed that the carb jets were blocked and decided to give them a clean. It was at this point we realised that the carb had bean built by a cowboy. Only one accelerator jet worked, when we tried to remove one of the main jets the casting gave away where it had bean previously broken and glued back together. A very good attempt was made to repair the carb but it didn't work. A new carb was fitted, but the engine still would not run. Thinking it was the ignition timing caused by the engine being timed using a faulty carb. The timing was altered but it now refused to start.

 

The engine bay was badly soiled with oil, petrol and dirt so the decision was made to remove the engine and fuel tank, repaint the bay, open up the tank and clean it properly and make an inspection panel so that the tank can be cleaned in the future without removing it. The engine was brought back to the mechanic to redo the ignition timing again. The engine was started and ran fine out of the vehicle.

 

The engine was fitted back into the vehicle, a new set of plugs and a good set of second hand points were fitted. It was hard to start now until it would warm up a bit. once a little warm it would rev out fine and sounded much smother than before. It was idling fast and the distributor needed to be fully retarded now to keep it smooth. On a test drive the engine was gutless, unable to move out of second gear. After a few hundred yards she would die. A week spark seamed to be the cause. The spark was orange. The spark improved to a blue/orange after bypassing the RF box and fitting a different HT lead (coil to distributor). On short test drives the vehicle drinks fuel, will only get into 3rd gear when on a hill, needs to be revved right out to get any power and will only travail a few hundred yards before it dies. It will go a little farther when cold, but will not even pull off when warm. If left to sit for a few mins It will start up and move off again, only to die in a few hundred yards again.The main timing was not altered from when the engine ran the first time and the new carb was never touched either.

 

I know there is a lot of info there, but I hope it builds some sort of a picture.

 

Thanks Ross

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Ross a frustrating business, you're having quite a time of it. Just a couple of thoughts.

 

What plugs are you using? What do they look like? Carboned up? RSN13P are very prone to this. Consider the picture below although there is sparking it is not where it should be!

 

Dsc04318x_zps5b8c0a40.jpg

 

Use RSN12Y which can heat up more & burn off the carbon. If you are make sure the gap is not too wide, if it is under compression & load there may not be enough voltage for proper ignition.

 

The other thing is the fuel filter clean & are the fuel tank vents clear including (if fitted) the valve in the vent line to prevent fuel escaping in the event of a roll. It is a very nice place for a spiders nest with dead flies etc

Edited by fv1609
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They are new old stock spark plugs and yes they are a bit black. I guessed this was down to a poor spark and the fuel drowning it out when a demand was put on. The spark has improved vastly but I would have expected to see a bright blue "lighting bolt" from a 24v system.

 

I posted the question on face book too and got some interesting answers, I thought the absence of the heat shield interesting.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4671802746/10151429085922747/?notif_t=group_comment

 

My next step is to get a heat shield fitted and replace the coil to distributor HT lead with a new one. I will find out the part number of the plugs I have and let ya know how I get on.

 

Thanks for your reply :)

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I would have expected to see a bright blue "lighting bolt" from a 24v system.

The voltage is 12v at the coil when the engine is running... read http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/IGNITIONMATTERS.pdf

 

Consider fitting Jolley Electronic Ignition http://www.classicheads.com/Electronic_Ignition.html Also in the above paper..

Edited by Marmite!!
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Does it cut out when hot then start ok after you have let her cool down?? Could be coil also, I have even seen new old stock out of the box do this. Can you beg, steal, borrow a known good one to eliminate?? Also could be fuel evaporation. Try heat shield or temp re-route fuel lines WELL away from engine/exhaust etc! Reading this thrtead, the answers given should give you a fair bit to do.

Dont forget, if you have A PROBLEM THE HMVF-TEAM ARE HERE TO HELP......!!!(leads out with the A-Team theme ringing in his ears......!!!!):nut:

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RSN13P are fine once everything is set correctly & the engine is running nicely, but once carboned up they stay like that. This can happen very quickly! If you have RSN12Y the gap should be 15-18 thou (about the thickness of a thumbnail). The RSN13P is set at that do not try adjusting the gap as the electrode will break.

 

Even if you took some known to be working plugs from a FFR Land Rover, your spark will be smaller than in the 24v Land Rover. This is because the inductance of the secondary is 40 henries & that of a FFR Land Rover 75-80 henries (depending on coil type) (Also the Rover system uses a 10-volt coil & because of this the primary circuit has a lower time constant).

 

Check that (other than at start up) when the points are closed the voltage to the coil is 12v & that there is not some fault in or connections to the ballast resistors in the junction box applying 24 volts all the time. This of course would cause the coil to overheat & cease to function.

 

I am surprised that the removal of the filter box improved things as it should only be about 0.01 ohms unless the coil is drawing an excessive current.

 

I'm afraid I couldn't read the link as I don't subscribe to facebook.

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As usual some great feed back on this forum :D.

 

My plugs are RSN 13P's and are a bit black. I was going to set the points and plugs to the civilian settings but it seems the plugs are a bit fragile for that, thanks:red:. Someone on Face book pointed out that there should be a heat shield under the distributor to protect it from the exhaust, I dont have one fitted. when I removed the Rf box the interior was badly corroded, probably as a result of the fire.

 

The fuel system has bean well cleaned several times. I even removed the tank (not an easy job on a MK 2/3 ferret) and fitted an inspection panel behind the radios. If the vent is blocked it will be in the outlet in the amour.

 

The fuel pump is something that is on my mind a little bit. I cleaned up the original one and tested it, it seamed fine and pumps ok. Its a very simple diagram pump so what could go wrong with it? Is there a test to see if its pumping to the correct pressure, is it possible for the pump to half work, so to speak?

 

The coil to distributor HT lead is also a concern as I reused the old one, it too could have bean damaged in the fire.

 

A guy on face book also said he uses a landrover condenser in his ferret, is this a good Idea, and can I use any 12v coil?

 

I have a lot to start with. I have got a heat shield on the way and am going to get some new HT wire to feed into the old conduit, coil to distributor. I am considering getting the RSN 12Y plugs, but this will be the 3rd set I have used in it and they are not cheep. I wonder would the 13's take a clean with a wire brush or am I tempting fate? I will also take a look at the air breather pipe but judging by the volume of fuel it's drinking I think it should be ok.

 

Thanks guys:D

Ross

Edited by Catch 22 LBDR
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Ross not sure what you mean by civilian settings. If you mean unscreened plugs that would increase the gap & you can't do that with RSN13P nor should you want to as the gap will be too great for the available HT.

 

You can't really get a wire brush in on RSN13P plugs. Besides too much brushing can leave tiny metal deposits around the insulator. The only way of cleaning is a very short burst of abrasive powder cleaning. There is a danger in that too much use can damage the electrodes microscopically making it more difficult for a spark to jump in that a higher voltage is needed to be sure of a reliable spark. This said I have never actually had a problem blasting my RSN13P plugs.

 

The fact that some fuel is being used doesn't mean the vent is completely clear. There may be a constriction. you could try blowing in from the vent & see if there is resistance with the fuel cap off. I once had a poor fuel problem because there was air being drawn in the fuel filter bleed screw as the washer was defective. If there was failure in the fuel pump main diaphragm (there are two) then fuel would leak into the sump & the oil level would go up (not sure how oil works in a Ferret, I have a Pig)

 

The heat shield I suppose stops the cable insulation getting cooked with might then break down. If you were near me (Salisbury) I could test the insulation. The capacitor is rated as a high temperature one, but excess heat for that will do it no good. Again all your coils, lead, capacitors, rotor arms etc can be tested quite easily if you were near me.

 

Yes use a Land Rover 0.2 mfd capacitor. These are rated at 500v the energising voltage is irrelevant. It is the back EMF that gives about 300v as the contacts open that is important. The spark as the breaker opens is this back EMF. Do not use a radio or suppressor type capacitor only a distributor one as that is rated for the EMF & for heat tolerance. I don't think I have ever tested a NOS proper "B Series" capacitor & found it to be without some sort of leakage!

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Did the electronic ignition make a big difference, was it worth the money and was it difficult to fit? I just want to cover all my options.

 

Yes, yes & no.

 

This is a RSN13P at the end of the season after about 300 miles on electronic ignition.

 

IGN50_zps629c478a.jpg

 

But this was a properly set up system. I would advise against fitting the electronic ignition until it is running in its original set up & only then convert.

 

You can have good performance with a properly set up conventional system. But ensuring it is kept that way is the challenge eg setting points, making sure they are synchronised, checking the capacitor is still good because they can fail gradually & allow leakage without there being a dramatic & overt failure. All these anxieties can be swept aside with electronic ignition so that if you have starting/running problems there is less to start pulling apart in a diagnostic witch hunt.

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gonna stir the pot ! now if i had to comment on that plug i would say its running hot/mixture bit lean! ( stand by for rf to dive in!)

 

Agreed I wouldn't argue with that.

 

The image is in the ignition article that has been on site for a number of years. The comment has been passed to me on a number of occasions. But it was the picture I took after my first season of using electronic ignition I was using it to express my delight that at least it wasn't carboned up :D

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hi you realy seem to have a nightmare in that ferrit .i have one it broke down first time out , ran dead flat black smoke out of the exhaust it was gagging and plugs were black i put new carb on from marcus glen it was not expensive and now it runs like a sewing machine i can leave it for months and it strikes up like a gud un it might be the answer but its hard to diagnose prblems over the net good luck

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Hi

Thought I'd put my two pennoth in. My ferret started to lose power after a couple of miles & would eventually come to a grinding halt. When left to cool down it would then re start & drive fine for another couple of miles, eventually loosing power again etc. I replaced the condenser with one from Bannisters & the problem was instantaneously cured. You wouldn't believe that such a small component could cause such a problem. On the up side it must be one of the few operations you can do on the engine of the ferret without having to remove half of the ferret to get at it!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just a quick update for everyone following this thread. I decided to go back to basics and assume everything has bean done wrong to date so far. I started with the Rolls Royce B series Manuel and checked the valve timing and discovered that it was out by almost 24deg, two teeth on the timing gears. After putting this right and resetting the ignition timing the engine fired up. It's still sounds a bit lumpy but pules and drives much better now. :cheesy:

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  • 10 months later...
  • 1 year later...

My Ferret was running extremely rich and the idle was very lumpy; it turns out that the nut had fallen off of the back of the valve in the economy device and was binding with the spring. Fixing that up has it running much better.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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My Ferret was running extremely rich and the idle was very lumpy; it turns out that the nut had fallen off of the back of the valve in the economy device and was binding with the spring. Fixing that up has it running much better.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

A thing I found on one carb that was rebuilt for the Army under contract was that the wrong spring had been fitted in the economy device. It was too long so the whole spring was compressed just to get it in place so the was no possibility of the diaphragm moving.

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