Federal Fire Tender; identity and photos wanted

[RAFMT]

In 1941 Greece ordered a number of Federal Fire Tenders, these were en route from the US when Greece fell to the Axis forces. The shipment was diverted to Egypt and the fire tenders taken on charge by the War Department who put them in storage i believe, before issuing them to the Royal Air Force.

Does anyone know the type of fire tender and have images of one?

 

Many Thanks

 

Bryan

[ted angus]

They were not put into storage, they were issued to the Army Fire Service Not the RAF The RAF fire service got a batch of Internationals !!

The Federal is attached, I do have better shots I will try and get them scanned.

TED

[Fyll]

For years I've had this pic in my files.

Sorry about the quality, it's from a photocopy which is marked "FBS Overseas news, Summer '91, page 64". Although the caption's identification is wrong the rest of the information ties in with the above. The Fire Service in Greece used Federal pumpers, which miraculously survived the war and German occupation and served on post war. In some cases they survived into the early 1960s. These vehicles were all normal control with a longer bonnet and a front mounted pump.

 

I'd love to see more photos of the Army Fire Service vehicles.

 

Fyll

[RAFMT]

Thank you for the pictures, I apologise for not making it completely clear in the OP – the vehicles themselves were on Army charge, but all the RAF stations in the Middle East had their fire tenders provided to them by the Army during the early war and they retained their WD numbers with only a small roundel to distinguish them. From what I understand they proved to be so good that the RAF ordered more engines directly from America whose entry into the war led to the introduction of the International into RAF service under lend-lease.

The reason I mentioned them being in storage is a reference to one being collected “from stores” but then that’s ambiguous enough to mean anything. So I stand corrected!

[ted angus]

Yes it was British Army Staff in Washington who arranged contract of such equipment and its onward shipping, they acted on behalf of the RAF for its requirements. However, the WD number plates in english & arabic were a requirement of the Egyptian Government. prior to early 1941 all RAF vehicles were registered with Middlesex CC, overseas, ad- hoc systems were used, In Egypt most RAF vehicles had WD plates until the RAF 12345 system came into use, some seem to retain them until the 12AA12 system came into use. The WD plate was not a mark of ownership. - "Stores", all shipments would normally be received by a depot, MU, store or sub store; overseas many "stores " were multi service. So even if vehicles only remained in store for long enough for the paperwork to be processed the user unit would draw it from "Stores".

A classic example in more modern times, THe Land Rover based TACR 1 crash rescue tenders had their Service VRN applied by HCB, MT org worked out an allocation programme, HCB delivered the vehicles to CVD Hilton, receiving units were then instructed to collect their vehicles as they were processed at Hilton, The MTO of the receiving unit would either arrange his MTDs to collect from Stores or if it was a larger vehicle requiring a Q to drive would request the Stn F. O. to arrange collection using pre qualified fireman drivers. I have been delving into UK military fire vehicles since 1970, my friend Brian Baxter ( formerly dep curator at Aborfield museum) for even longer - we have never previously heard of an RAF connection to the Federals so would be very interested in your source. I will scan the Federal pics as soon as I can but it may not be for a few days.

Hi Fyll- hope you are keeping well

regards to both

TED

[RAFMT]

You know what, I knew that RAF vehicles in Egypt had WD plates before the RAF##### system, but it was one of those cases where you look at something from a different angle and forget to add in what you already know! :blush:

In this case though, Bruce Robertson’s Wheels of the RAF, was the first reference I saw of RAF Federals, and he said they were WD owned not AM but we’ll discount that now. I also came across a reference (desperately scrabbling for it and failing to find it) from an erk in Egypt who was sent as a spare bod with a driver to collect one from stores.

Finally I have the entry in Air Publication 2782 Databook of RAF Vehicles which I attach. This edition is undated but is around ‘41/’42 before the arrival of the International fire engines. Later ’45 editions of this book do not have the Federal or the International vehicles having standardised on the Crossley and Fordson crash tenders and Karrier with domestic fire engine body.

 

[ted angus]

Fantastic, that is clear evidence - thanks for sharing. attached is the shipping notes diagram for the International raised by the UK army staff in Washington. also attached an International post 1949 in Habbaniya. As soon I I can get scanner access I will get the Feds done and post them on here.

Have you all the complete 1940 data book ?? I stretched the pension to breaking point earlier this year and purchased a mass of stuff from Hendon the !)40 MoS edition was on my list for next year how many pages ??

 

regards TED

[RAFMT]

That one was about 250 pages all up, including around 50 or so introduction pages with info on tyres, american manufacturers, CMP designations and other interesting bits.

A little off topic, but i was looking at a series of Charles Brown photographs today of a pre war Morris Commercial fire tender at Abu Suier the two crew in the cab were RAF but the other six were locals who very enthusiastically fighting their practice fire with hand held extinguishers as well as the tenders hose. Although i was most amused by the stencilling on the side indicating the tender had a 20mph limit- evidently you had to arrange your fires beforehand to ensure the tender arrived on time! :-D

[Runflat]

For years I've had this pic in my files.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]70437[/ATTACH]

Sorry about the quality, it's from a photocopy which is marked "FBS Overseas news, Summer '91, page 64". Although the caption's identification is wrong the rest of the information ties in with the above. The Fire Service in Greece used Federal pumpers, which miraculously survived the war and German occupation and served on post war. In some cases they survived into the early 1960s. These vehicles were all normal control with a longer bonnet and a front mounted pump.

 

I'd love to see more photos of the Army Fire Service vehicles.

 

This picture appeared in Motor Transport on April 3, 1943. The caption then was: BEIRUT FIRE SERVICE - This fire engine belongs to the Beirut Fire Brigade, the personnel of which is mostly British, augmented by several Basutos. These men all come from the same village in Basutoland.

 

We also have a string on the Army Fire Service here (mainly about Bedford QLs and the north west europe campaign): http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?26171

[ted angus]

(British) Army Fire Brigade Beirut yes very likely--- "Beirut fire brigade" a bit of a red herring; From mid july 1941 Beirut became an important supply hub and Harbour facility for operations in the Mediterranean theatre.

I think I have possibly 3 or 4 more decent shots including the vehicles after fitting of BA stowage containers I will post once they are scanned. Those young chaps from Africa were very loyal and able soldiers from what I have read.

TED

[ted angus]

as promised

[RAFMT]

Thank you for the pictures Ted, do you know if this model had a name or was it just the number used in the Databook entry i posted before?

[ted angus]

Only ever seen it refered to as the Federal same with the International !

 

TED