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gear oil recomendations for a timken double reduction axle (ward lafrance)


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MIke;

I know there is yellow metal in the transmission, but I thought the rear axles did not have any, just roller bearings. Also, did you recive my email about my inquiry about torque rods. After talking to Jeff Jensen, he seems to agree on GL4EP for the diffs and GL1 for the tranny.

 

Thanks

 

John G

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  • 2 months later...

I've been speaking to a major national specialist oils supplier who say that GL1 is the spec to go for as even GL4 can attack yellow metals when in the presence of moisture (condensation). They said to avoid EP oils altogether as the additives that make it extreme pressure are those which can attack the yellow metals. We were trying to identify a lube that could be used universally throughout the drivetrain as I wanted to bulk buy. I am awaiting their conclusion but the essential requirement is something as close to GL1 SAE 90.

 

- MG

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I've been speaking to a major national specialist oils supplier who say that GL1 is the spec to go for as even GL4 can attack yellow metals when in the presence of moisture (condensation). They said to avoid EP oils altogether as the additives that make it extreme pressure are those which can attack the yellow metals. We were trying to identify a lube that could be used universally throughout the drivetrain as I wanted to bulk buy. I am awaiting their conclusion but the essential requirement is something as close to GL1 SAE 90.

 

- MG

 

Mike,

If you want a straight 90 gear oil with no EP rating / additives the Morris AG range is the one. Good for gearboxes with sychro in as it gives for better changes, (Jeeps, etc).

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I'm using AG90 in the CMP gear boxes (crash gearbox) and it feels very smooth on gear changes.

 

I've not used it for long mind you, so I don't know what the longer term effect of not having the EP additives will be. I was worried about the modern additives being quite different to the older ones, especially when I started reading around the subject on some of the vintage/classic car forums.

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I'm using AG90 in the CMP gear boxes (crash gearbox) and it feels very smooth on gear changes.

 

I've not used it for long mind you, so I don't know what the longer term effect of not having the EP additives will be. I was worried about the modern additives being quite different to the older ones, especially when I started reading around the subject on some of the vintage/classic car forums.

 

Lauren,

You do not need an EP gear oil in crash box, nor in a sychro box either. Many vehicles used a heavy engine oil, SAE 40 or SAE 50.

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I'd imagine EP oils only became the norm as a result of vehicle manufacturers constantly upping engine output without increasing the size / capacity of the drive train. If a manufacturer did not originally specify EP oils there surely is no explicit need to use EP.

 

The idea of a universal gear oil for these vehicles certainly has merits, and if a mild EP oil can be used with yellow metals without any concerns then great. Awaiting advice with interest, but I can't see the problem with using a straight oil such as AG in these older vehicles.

 

What grade did you end up using in your 6 hour lubefest, John?

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Lauren! - I've not not thought about it before, but yes - doing a bit of reading it looks like EP additives were introduced to create a tougher oil (e.g. hypoid 90) for use with the hypoid design of crown wheel and pinion gears then coming into common use in drive axles.

 

Does the CMP axle contain any bronze?

MIke;

I know there is yellow metal in the transmission, but I thought the rear axles did not have any, just roller bearings. Also, did you recive my email about my inquiry about torque rods. After talking to
Jeff Jensen
, he seems to agree on GL4EP for the diffs and GL1 for the tranny.

Thanks

John G

 

 

John and Mike - IMPORTANT!! The 4 pinion differential assembly is the same in WLF front and rear axles, and as far as I can tell is the same as those in the Federal 606, only axle difference compared to WLF is a higher reduction ratio, but the differential assembly should be the same.

 

Now the WLF manuals (e.g. TM 9-1795A Power Train Maintenance, covering complete axle rebuild) do not seem to mention the material used for the diff. pinion and side thrust washers, but the Federal manual states these are BRONZE..... Have either of you pulled a WLF diff assembly apart and able to confirm thrust washer material?

 

Can you advise what parts of gearbox and transfer box are bronze please?

 

Differential Assy.jpg

Edited by N.O.S.
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Also - ref. my post #4, the Federal manual recommends SAE 90 for winter and SAE 140 for summer (like we're going to change it every 6 months....).

 

So it looks like 140 would be quite acceptable. Also it doesn't run out quite so quickly, although you can get an anti-drip additive for incontinent drive trains :laugh:

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Transfer box shims - I wouldn't be at all worried about the shims as they are not subject to constantly refreshed oil contact like wearing surfaces are.

 

Differential - the diff is effectively sealed by the two part casing, so unless you split the assembly I don't think you'll see either thrust washers through the small holes.

Edited by N.O.S.
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The British Army specified use of C-600 gear oil in gearboxes and axles during WW2, especially worm drives (bronze wheels). This was a compound oil of SAE140 grade and still is the correct lubricant for worm and wheel drives. It was a bit heavy in gearboxes and made for difficult changes until warm. Postwar they changed the servicing schedules to substitute 140 for a Hypoid 90 in g/box and axles, except worm drives. I know for a fact that some of the assemblies had bronze in them and I have never come across any noticable damage. It could be the Hypoid oil (EP) at that time did not contain anything detrimental to "yellow" metals. As there are different types of Hypoid / EP oils around now with the GL- ratings, some are OK for these older gear assemblies. The army used OEP220 which was a 90EP and later a classed as a 85w/90, but in the Defence Standard of 1991 it was not to be used where there were gears or bearings of copper alloys. They do not show a GL rating in the spec.

 

I personally use originally specified oils such as SAE140, as it tends to hang on the surfaces better than 90, when standing idle.

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....I personally use originally specified oils such as SAE140, as it tends to hang on the surfaces better than 90, when standing idle.

 

Which is exactly why I like the idea :)

 

I have seen how modern EP oils can eat away bronze thrust washers in differentials and epicyclic reduction hubs in earthmover axles - quite dramatic.

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Taking a look at the 1943 MB-F1 it does appear that they may have been trying to standardise on EP oil. The gear oil is described as "90 Hypoid - universal - gear oil".

 

The WOT manual from the same period has a stick in sheet in the front changing the nomenclature for oils, but still specifies C600, so maybe Hypoid Universal is a Canadian thing.

 

Either way, 1943 Hypoid is probably a very different mixture from modern EP lubricants, so personally I'd stick with the straight non-EP stuff. I'm not sure whether there's any yellow metal in the gearboxes, but I figure it's not worth taking the risk.

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We ended up using a 90wt GL-1 in the tranny and transfer case. We used GL-5 in the differentials as there is a hypoid /worm gear action going on and we did not see any bronze as we checked the ORD 9 parts breakdown. ( I may stand corrected on this) We did remove a small amount of water from the tranny, but the transfer and differentials were just filled with oil. We used 90wt Gl-1 in the winch gear cases.

 

I like the term Lubefest.

 

John G

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  • 1 month later...

Hi all,

 

My two bobs worth (ISTBC):-

 

Firstly, I believe EP and Hypoid are two different classifications. Don't know about EP, but I do know that Hypoid refers to the type of tooth design typically used for the crownwheels/pinions in diffs where the centre line on the pinion is below (or above) the centre line of the crownwheel. This always required a "diff" oil. We would use 90 grade in cars and 140 grade in trucks. I don't remember the EP rating at all in the 1970's/80's. Interestingly, The WLF/KW diffs have crownwheel/pinion centrelines co-planar (intersecting).

 

Secondly, unless you are planning to do house relocation or regularly tow start minor European countries, I doubt that you will need the heavier oil. And as TTM noted, the manual says 90 grade above freezing temperatures.

 

Thirdly, a worm drive is a very different animal to a hypiod or conventional gear set. I think every worm drive I've seen had a brass wormwheel. This is typical of WW2 USA made winches, however, the manual says to use the same 90 grade gear oil.

 

Methinks the 90 grade gear oil of WW2 was very basic stuff that did the job.

BUT, they also recommended regular changes too, 1000 miles and 500miles for the transfer case!!!!!!!!!:wow:

 

Hmmm, that didn't really clarify things. I'll be using over-the-counter 90 grade gear oil.

 

Enjoy.

 

Sam.

 

P.S. Once again, we have record-breaking floods in eastern Australia. I'm high and dry, thankfully.

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Sam;

 

I read that oil change interval also, and I think that if it was followed, they would not find water in the differentials;)

However, I think those intervals were not followed during "in theater" operations. Also, the engine oil change interval is 1000 miles.

 

John G

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Well, well, well. I just happen to have a M1A1 diff apart at the moment (as we do! :undecided:)

 

Inside this assembly are the diff gears (2 side gears/4 planetary gears).

M1A1 rear diff centre a.JPG

 

Just visible through the hole, behind the side gear, is the thrust washer.

It looks to be a steel material, not showing any of the colour you would expect from a brass washer.

I gave it a bit of a scratch to make sure.

M1A1 rear diff centre closeup.JPG

 

 

Have a nice day.

Sam.

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Sam;

You know, you really did not have to take the differential carrier out to check for all of us:wow:, but I really appreciate your effort. So like did it take you around 30 minutes to remove it from under the truck:yawn: but I am sure you had it done no later than lunch time.

Seriously thou, I know the removal job was a pain in the butt, but I can rest easier now knowing there is no yellow metal in the differential because I was not looking forward to another 5 gallon differential LUBEFEST. Hope you get the truck back in order soon!

 

thanks Sam.

 

 

John G

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