M5Clive Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Spotted by myself on the flight line at the Victory Show last weekend. I have no idea whatsoever who this person is and it is not remotely illegal to take a photograph of a total stranger displaying himself in public, although I admit that this thread may be seen by some as a little controversial. The reason why I have posted the thread is that I personally find it rather cringeworthy that this type of uniform behavior clearly exists and I think it does the re-enactment movement as a whole a complete disservice. Here we see a gentleman of a certain age at a military history show which is open to the public, attracting attention for all the wrong reasons. He is wearing a World War Two (possibly reproduction but he was too far away for me to tell) American Army Officers Class A tunic, officers shirt and tie. He is wearing a Presidential Unit Citation above his right breast pocket (awarded to individual combat units for group acts of gallantry), he has an array of other individually awarded medals above his left breast pocket along with a sharp-shooters badge and a colored lanyard denoting yet more awards of distinction. He is wearing 1st Lieutenants ranking on his shoulders and Infantry (crossed rifles) on his lapels, all topped off by a fisherman's hat, modern sunglasses and his tunic is fully unbuttoned and his hands are in his pockets displaying the most non-military stance I have seen since watching Private Doberman in the Phil Silver's Show !!!! As an occasional uniform wearer of some 20 odd years (to which I am not and will never be entitled to), I find the whole spectacle of this public demonstration of slovenliness entirely damming to our hobbie and the re-enactment movement as a whole. Speaking as someone who has always tried their level best to do any style of uniform that I have worn justice, I find it especially disheartening that individuals choose to wear this type of get-up in such an inappropriate fashion without any due consideration for the men who had to wear that gear for real. It has taken me over two decades to assemble my uniform collection, and much of my collection I will never wear as at 37, I deem myself too old and too chubby to portray a lean private of the US Airborne Divisions like I did when I was 23, and even one of two of my 1940's Dance military dress tunics are getting a little snug for comfort. I can only conclude that individuals such as the one portrayed above really have no idea what they are wearing or what it actually represents, let alone what all of the regalia actually means that they are parading around on public display. I was going to headline this thread 'Glenn Miller's Dad,' but after having recently posted a thread with a slightly inappropriate title, I thought better of it. Am I a lone voice in my thoughts or does anyone else find this type of portrayal rather unacceptable or even care? Edited September 14, 2012 by Marmite!! Photo editted by HMVF Admin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 My feelings on this subject are well known though usually misunderstood so running the risk of censure here goes.....! Personally, I don't find it disrespectful as such. It is not 'my' uniform so it does not offend me. I think he looks a prat but the freedom to do so was hard won by those who wore it for real. He was not alone at that or any other show, many of the reenactors are too old and too fat to look like anything other than a middle aged man dressing up. Again, the freedom to do so should be embraced! Let's just not pretend it's some noble undertaking, it is a hobby. Many, no doubt most go to great lengths to look right, the man in question fell a long way short...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snort Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 My feelings on this subject are well known though usually misunderstood so running the risk of censure here goes.....!Personally, I don't find it disrespectful as such. It is not 'my' uniform so it does not offend me. I think he looks a prat but the freedom to do so was hard won by those who wore it for real. He was not alone at that or any other show, many of the reenactors are too old and too fat to look like anything other than a middle aged man dressing up. Again, the freedom to do so should be embraced! Let's just not pretend it's some noble undertaking, it is a hobby. Many, no doubt most go to great lengths to look right, the man in question fell a long way short...... I think Adrian that you have hit the nail on the head although I never agree with anyone wearing medals or awards that were not earned, however some do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I never agree with anyone wearing medals or awards that were not earned, however some do. Again, it does not offend me but I can see how it would offend others and indeed devalue the perception of the award. I would never where one, it is not something I would feel at all comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Grundy Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 A chap dressed like this does not 'offend' me as this leads in some parts of the world to death, see current news programes........ However I agree with nearly all the comments posted. I am not religious but " Forgive them Lord they know not what they do" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) I have no issues at all. May be he has just started out in the hobby and has yet to 'find' his way? May be someone in the future will guide him in the right direction, because, cleary he hasn't quite got it correct - if the gentleman knew his history then I doubt if he would of got this wrong. BUT - to me, he is 'out there' enjoying life and to a certain degree may well be a point of contact for some members of the public to ask about history. I have no issues at all with regards to wearing medals or uniforms - I don't understand the hobby's line of 'I didn't earn it so I can't wear it' - doesn't that mean that no one can wear a uniform from the past? Can't be a Roman, Civil War re-enactor for example? The best war film/series ever made was Band of Brothers - they all wear uniforms, medals etc - never heard anyone complain about that fact. When I was a lad my grandfather threw his medals in the bin when he was clearing out some stuff - I picked them out of the bin and kept them. My grandfather spoke of the war and it wasn't good and may be that's where I get my views on war from. He couldn't care for his uniform or medals. He hated Churchill and he hated Hitler - because they took him away from his family (my mum and uncle). He never earned his uniform - he had no choice - he was forced to wear it, his words, not mine. I know it can be frustating to folks like yourself as you have done more for history than many other have or will ever do but may be to this gentleman he may be silently 'doing' his personal bit by just having a connection by wearing what he is wearing? That said - I think the whole hobby needs a shake up from the top down and the bottom up - it needs to evolve again. Edited September 14, 2012 by Jack Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I have no issues at all. May be he has just started out in the hobby and has yet to 'find' his way? May be someone in the future will guide him in the right direction, because, cleary he hasn't quite got it correct - if the gentleman knew his history then I doubt if he would of got this wrong. BUT - to me, he is 'out there' enjoying life and to a certain degree may well be a point of contact for some members of the public to ask about history. I have no issues at all with regards to wearing medals or uniforms - I don't understand the hobby's line of 'I didn't earn it so I can't wear it' - doesn't that mean that no one can wear a uniform from the past? Can't be a Roman, Civil War re-enactor for example? The best war film/series ever made was Band of Brothers - they all wear uniforms, medals etc - never heard anyone complain about that fact. When I was a lad my grandfather threw his medals in the bin when he was clearing out some stuff - I picked them out of the bin and kept them. My grandfather spoke of the war and it wasn't good and may be that's where I get my views on war from. He couldn't care for his uniform or medals. He hated Churchill and he hated Hitler - because they took him away from his family (my mum and uncle). He never earned his uniform - he had no choice - he was forced to wear it, his words, not mine. I know it can be frustating to folks like yourself as you have done more for history than many other have or will ever do but may be to this gentleman he may be silently 'doing' his personal bit by just having a connection by wearing what he is wearing? That said - I think the whole hobby needs a shake up from the top down and the bottom up - it needs to evolve again. Jack, you suggest that this person doesn't know his history and in the next breath imply that he might be teaching history to the general public:??? Regarding Band of Brothers etc I think you are confusing the issue, there is a big difference between a film or series which attempts to be as historically accurate as possible in all respects and an individual acting as this person is. Although I do own a variety of uniforms (repro) the only thing I feel comfortable with is a set of overalls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Jack, you suggest that this person doesn't know his history and in the next breath imply that he might be teaching history to the general public:???Regarding Band of Brothers etc I think you are confusing the issue, there is a big difference between a film or series which attempts to be as historically accurate as possible in all respects and an individual acting as this person is. Although I do own a variety of uniforms (repro) the only thing I feel comfortable with is a set of overalls. No not at all, I am saying that actually you can't judge a book by it's cover. BoB - but, they haven't 'earned' the right either - they are folks just acting - the same as re-enactors. BoB was also, in places, historically inaccurate too. Where does one draw the line? Spielberg had $120,000,000 and still didn't get it 100% but it would be impossible to get it 100%. Are folks saying that the only people who can wear a uniform outside of the services are actors and veterans? Actors not giving a monkeys about history - it's just a job, whereas re-enactors who have passion and knowledge aren't 'allowed' to?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 oooooh..............can of worms officially open I reckons..:-D... ....My opinion is I don't personally want to dress up as anything but that's just me ...I don't even enjoy ordinary 'fancy dress' parties , I always feel far more 'daft' than 'hey I'm joining in' .....but as I said ....that's my personal feelings......but.If I was to do it I would think you should be as spot on as you can be...in dress and conduct..:-|.. I do however feel that we could be only a short step away from maybe saying "if you don't do it 100% right then you're not allowed to do it all"..... ....and if we say that to uniforms ...should we not also start saying that about vehicles??? ...in which case we ....and the entire hobby is proper knackered....... Incidentally I cannot fathom for the life of me why a fella born and bred (presumably) somewhere in the UK would wish to march about as a US serviceman..(or any other Nationality)...if you're British ...portray a British unit of some sorts.... but that's also another can of worms probably best left unopened :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I don't have a problem with uniform or rank - but the medal thing really gets to me - speaking from someone who has earnt the right to wear medals. Enough said. Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I don't have a problem with uniform or rank - but the medal thing really gets to me - speaking from someone who has earnt the right to wear medals. Enough said. Markheliops Yeah its a real moral minefield for sure for some but - you can't really tell the story of history or experiences if you leave certain elements out, in this case medals - they are a massive story within themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I don't have a problem with uniform or rank - but the medal thing really gets to me - speaking from someone who has earnt the right to wear medals. Enough said. Markheliops Couldn't agree more, it's the medals that disturb me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike65 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Interesting one. My only experience of wearing a uniform was 4-5 years in the ATC. But we were taught to wear it correctly and respectfully. When out at shows I do not wear any a uniform, I am more into the mechanical things. I would however wear one if the occasion dictated, but would want to wear it with some form of correctness such that I was respecting those who actually wore one in anger. I would however draw the line at rank, unit badges and most definitely medals. These are things I feel are only appropriate it you served and earned them. However I also feel there are occasions when the wearing of these could be deemed appropriate such as re-enactments where the wearing could be deemed to serves a purpose. In reality if worn in an appropriate manner and context it should not be an issue. If however it is to deceive or gain personally I believe it is wrong. Back to the gentleman in question, he may not fully understand the implications of what he is doing and why it might offend. We do not know the circumstances behind him having the uniform, insignia and medal. They may well have belonged to a family member and he thinks he is doing them an honor by wearing it. Alternatively he might just need educating, as he does not really know the full story. Maybe he thinks it is cool and that he does not look like a wally. (my opinion) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longydagun Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The medals bit i totally get, but guys come on not every person wants to dress in 100% accurate clothing and its as simple as that. Last weekend at cosby i was crewing one of the hellcats and opted literally for a green t-shirt and trousers to match. I admit in front of the crowd it may not look that authentic or whatever else but at the end of the day i was comfortable and really enjoyed myself. What i'm really getting at is you have to live and live it is at the end of the day 'each to their own' Just my thoughts on the matter cheers Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I have no issues at all. May be he has just started out in the hobby and has yet to 'find' his way? May be someone in the future will guide him in the right direction, because, cleary he hasn't quite got it correct - if the gentleman knew his history then I doubt if he would of got this wrong. BUT - to me, he is 'out there' enjoying life and to a certain degree may well be a point of contact for some members of the public to ask about history. I have no issues at all with regards to wearing medals or uniforms - I don't understand the hobby's line of 'I didn't earn it so I can't wear it' - doesn't that mean that no one can wear a uniform from the past? Can't be a Roman, Civil War re-enactor for example? The best war film/series ever made was Band of Brothers - they all wear uniforms, medals etc - never heard anyone complain about that fact. When I was a lad my grandfather threw his medals in the bin when he was clearing out some stuff - I picked them out of the bin and kept them. My grandfather spoke of the war and it wasn't good and may be that's where I get my views on war from. He couldn't care for his uniform or medals. He hated Churchill and he hated Hitler - because they took him away from his family (my mum and uncle). He never earned his uniform - he had no choice - he was forced to wear it, his words, not mine. I know it can be frustating to folks like yourself as you have done more for history than many other have or will ever do but may be to this gentleman he may be silently 'doing' his personal bit by just having a connection by wearing what he is wearing? That said - I think the whole hobby needs a shake up from the top down and the bottom up - it needs to evolve again. Its not my cup of tea to wear a uniform of any sort, I much prefer civvy clothes with a touch of camo in the trousers. I admit to being one of those that didn't earn it so I won't wear it brigade and I can see the absurdity off it if when you mention reenactors wearing Roman or Civil War clothing. For me its probably more to do with my Grandparents either serving or being involved in war production during the 2nd World War. The respect bit must have been really driven home without me consciously being aware of it. In regards to a shake up I think its ongoing the younger generation who have not had Grandparents who worked or served have now become more aware of WW2 and now buy uniforms instead of vehicles. Thinking back to War and Peace I saw more young ladies dressed up as Land Girls, Waaf's and Wrens than I ever have before. Where you have young girls you have the corresponding lads as well, good for the hobby bad for the vehicle side of things. Stoneleigh has changed from being mostly parts to mostly uniform and deacs not that interesting to me anyway (side issue) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Obviously I can't see his face or judge his age, but is there a chance it's his uniform and his medals? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott9643 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 ....... I think he looks a prat but ........ This is the best quote so far! ....... but hey -- each to his own I guess just so long as he doesn't come up and tell me that because I've got military vehicles I should dress up in a military uniform and look a prat like him! Like others in this thread, HM Queen paid me well to wear a uniform, taught me self respect and gave me an enormous sense of pride whenever I wore it -- and I earned my rank and decorations. I now choose to wear what I like and have no problems with others doing the same -- just don't mind me if I don't want to join in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazz Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I'm an ex serviceman with a number of Decorations and Awards, I only wear them for "formal gatherings/parades etc. I was contemplating joining a re-enacting group, but at 55 and overweight decided that I would look a prat. At our local Remembrance Parade last year there was a number of locals (non ex forces) wearing uniforms and awards etc that they were not entitled to. A friend of mine in the local constabulary who is ex RMP, reminded those people, that it is still an offence to wear rank and awards you are not entitled to. To go on a bit more, why when they are a certain age and size must re enactors however well dressed, must be UK/Us Para's, or dressed as officers etc when it would more appropriate to be "other" Corps/Regt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 The wearing of uniforms is covered under the Uniforms Act 1894 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/57-58/45 Military uniforms not to be worn without authority.(1)It shall not be lawful for any person not serving in Her Majesty’s Military Forces to wear without Her Majesty’s permission the uniform of any of those forces, or any dress having the appearance or bearing any of the regimental or other distinctive marks of any such uniform: Provided that this enactment shall not prevent . . . . . . F1 any persons from wearing any uniform or dress in the course of a stage play performed in a place duly licensed or authorised for the public performance of stage plays, or in the course of a music hall or circus performance, or in the course of any bona fide military representation.(2)If any person contravenes this section he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F2level 3 on the standard scale]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggerdog36 Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 It gets to me too, that's what annoyed me with the W&P show, you get people walking round in all types of uniform, CS95 desert trousers with trainers, a SAS beret and a 40's BD jacket, if you're going to portray someone, portray them realistically. But the medals, having earned medals in a number of wars, I've lost friends, I find it disrespectful. I remember once we we guarding an airshow and we ejected a gent for claiming he was a serving RAF pilot, wearing Flt Lt flying suit and wearing SD shoes and an airman SD cap!! The uniform law, I never knew about that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Grundy Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Mmmm.... 'circus performance', is that what it is ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 para Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 we held a d day event at my place of work last year and there where a number of folk walking around in para reg uniform and beret's . it has never bothered me before but i could feel myself getting angry at these men . i took me and a lot of other guys a lot of blood, sweat and some tears to earn the right to wear that beret and somehow felt cheated. please don't even get me started on the wearing of medals not earned :mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 we held a d day event at my place of work last year and there where a number of folk walking around in para reg uniform and beret's . it has never bothered me before but i could feel myself getting angry at these men . i took me and a lot of other guys a lot of blood, sweat and some tears to earn the right to wear that beret and somehow felt cheated. please don't even get me started on the wearing of medals not earned :mad: You could have given them the chance to jump out a perfectly good aeroplane, bet they would have taken the uniform off pretty damn sharpish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I went to the Goodwood Revival yesterday with Mrs M......and for a very rare outing actually wore a full 37 pattern BD outfit, sidecap, belt, anklets and ammo boots.......the better half wore her ATS uniform....... Insignia....? I wore slip-on RA shoulder titles and a cap badge........no Div insignia and no medals......I am generally a reluctant uniform wearer......I was in the RAF for 3 years, then the plod (currently) for 27 years....so 30 years of uniform of one sort or another has been quite sufficient for me !! (though I haven't worn a uniform for the last 7 years professionally.....)........I did a jump course when in the mob but choose not to wear my "lightbulb".....and I also choose not to wear the range of medals I've earn't through places I've been and time I've served.......yesterday was just a bit of fun !!! Though, both of us thought that if we were going to dress up we would do it correctly or not at all......and although Mrs M was never in the ATS or Army, she was a WREN in the 70s (all 4'10" of her...:-D)....... I personally think the issue isn't one of disrespect, moreso a modern lack of knowledge and social awareness......so many people at Goodwood yesterday were clearly there for the occasion, most in a hastily-hired crap modern uniform rented from the local fancy dress shop complete with all the bling and ribbons.........after all, ask anyone what the ribbons they are wearing actually are and they wouldn't have a clue........ On one hand, those of us that have earned our gongs through time served and under fire should be miffed.....but another part of me is actually quite flattered by the increasing interest and popularity afforded towards the military and our armed forces.......after all, am I the only one who remembers that for the period from the 70s through to the 80s the armed forces were not very well viewed from the public perspective, no doubt influenced by the media and NI, etc......perhaps we should be flattered.....or not...??? I am remaining neutral on this one..... Just a few muddled thoughts on a clearly hot topic........:angel: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Garrison Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Totally disrespectful to the Unit portrayed in my opinion and the military in general. I have been re-enacting for over 10 years now and prior to that wore the uniform in service. I have no issues with anyone who wishes to purchase a uniform and better educate others about our history in the varying ways. What i do have issue with is the "disrespectful muppets" who wear half a uniform, or wear it in a way it was never intended. Even in the mess that jacket should never be left undone and hands in pockets...grrr:mad:. If you are going to wear it, do it properly. Medal ribbons i can handle in a re-enactment scenario, fancy dress or event where it would be appropriate and i do like seeing children wearing grandparents medals (on the right) as a sign of respect for family. Just an opinion... This picture is from a cocktail party event with an old re-enactment unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.