welbike Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Found these 2 pictures, what guns are they exactly? Cheers, Lex Schmidt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 18 pr Mk IV? They look to me like they traverse across the carriage, never seen that before. Rob? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) 18 pr Mk IV? They look to me like they traverse across the carriage, never seen that before. Rob? Yes ,they are 18 pdr MK IV P, The arrangement between the hubs is a combination of suspension and Traverse,very complicated.I dont think the idea progressed after the MK IV.There is also a MKII gun in the first picture which would have had the Martin Parry wheel conversion fitted. It looks like salvage from Dunkirk, has the picture been taken in France ? Rob.....................rnixartillery. Edited August 27, 2012 by rnixartillery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 How does one intentionally blow the muzzle off, in a field situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 One shell in from back end, and one from front. Apply a long string and fire. Still SOP I belive . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Yes Rob, pictures taken in France, where I dont know, but the Germans took everything to collection points, some stuff got repaired, other went for scrap. Looks like the gunners did a good job spiking their guns! hope I never have to do that! Cheers, Lex Edited August 16, 2012 by welbike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 After the evacuation of Dunkirk the 18 pdr was made pretty much obsolete because of the large numbers lost,along with several types of vehicles ,the dragon to name one ! Rob....................rnixartillery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 18 pounders in France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Equipment used in Belgium and France during 1940....... a period poorly represented today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 What features marks these guns out as 18 Pounders rather than 25 pr Mark 1 on Carriage 25/18 pr MkVP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Equipment used in Belgium and France during 1940....... a period poorly represented today. I do my best!! see 2 of these comparison pictures, have many more, but this is the wrong board for them!! there really should be a "Then and Now" picture topic. Cheers, Lex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Fantastic pics, Lex! Wrong forum / thread but can't fix that from my phone. Perhaps you can repost them yourself? Not sure what the best forum would be though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Fantastic pics, Lex! Wrong forum / thread but can't fix that from my phone. Perhaps you can repost them yourself? Not sure what the best forum would be though.. Ha Joris, ja maak maar eens een "Then and Now" hoekje!! (sorry for the Double Dutch!) But it had to do with someone stating, that nothing was done with pre-Dunkirk stuff, so is sort of relevant here! I'll do another photoshoot in France again spring 2013, so anyone with period artillery can come along! Cheers, Lex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisgrove Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Yes ,they are 18 pdr MK IV P, The arrangement between the hubs is a combination of suspension and Traverse,very complicated.I dont think the idea progressed after the MK IV.There is also a MKI gun in the first picture which would have had the Martin Parry wheel conversion fitted.It looks like salvage from Dunkirk, has the picture been taken in France ? Rob.....................rnixartillery. Having seen that pic before, there are also a couple of Mk VP guns in the background as well - the ones with the split trail. Pics of these in France are apparently pretty rare. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25 pounder Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Previous photos show the 18 Pr converted to 25 Pr I guess , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25 pounder Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Along with the 18/25 Pdr guns , the Wehrmacht captured hughe stocks of artillery rounds (several ten thousands) I've got this weird cartridge , marked 3.45" , 1937 , LOT nr has been erased , and restamped C 17 , and UB , Is it possible that this particular cartridge served as a drill (UBung in German) for the German artillery ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 What features marks these guns out as 18 Pounders rather than 25 pr Mark 1 on Carriage 25/18 pr MkVP? These guns were the fore runners of the 25pdr. The 18pdr barrel was relined to accept the 25pdr round. Noticeably the breech is a wellin screw type, whereas the 25pdr "proper" was a sliding breech. Two types of gun were produced, the split trail and the box trail which again was used on the 25pdr. Split trails are a rare occurrence in France with the BEF, and the photo of them so far is the only one on record. The split trail can be identified (apart from the split trail) in that the shield was angled back on each of the sides, the box trail had a more squarish shape. There is an inner shield, and as stated the gun could traverse 5 degrees either side of centre, there wasa complicated "sub frame" that allowed this movement, and the rubber gaiters on the axle covered the axle as the carriage moved from side to side. The split trail did not require this adaptation as it could be traversed normally. Split trail guns were sent to the Middle East and used primarily by Commonwealth forces, it was not popular with the RA due to length of the trails.....however, anything that could move or fire would have been sent to France due to the lack of equipment available (sound familiar ?????) The gun was originally towed by the Morris Commercial CDSW "Toast-rack", and Guy or Morris FAT's. The Dragon MkIII was also employed. Difficult to pin down, but different units used different vehicles, some regular and some TA. A lot more research is required in this very interesting period. I have made quite a study of the 18/25pdr, there is an example at the Firepower Museum Woolwich, it has been played around with, as the axletree no longer allows the movement of the carriage. There are examples of these guns fitted with "spoked" artillery wheels, but these are pre-war, it seems that the guns that went to France, all had pneumatic tyres. Woolwich built a four wheeled version, that was never accepted, however they had the original layout plan in the library which made my research a lot easier, as it shows the original gun with all the rivet detail.....an amazing find. I enclose a photo of a scratchbuild in 1/35th, plus I have an article and more photo's on my website. www.mooresmilitarymodels.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Here are a couple of nice photo's from my archive clearly taken post 1937 as it is pictured with the No 27 limber and not the No 24. Note the No5 night Illumination box fitted to the side of the trail,this was later fitted to the 25 pdr on the rear of the Shield in front of the Gun Layer. Rob.....................rnixartillery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 These guns were the fore runners of the 25pdr. The 18pdr barrel was relined to accept the 25pdr round. Noticeably the breech is a wellin screw type, whereas the 25pdr "proper" was a sliding breech. Two types of gun were produced, the split trail and the box trail which again was used on the 25pdr. Split trails are a rare occurrence in France with the BEF, and the photo of them so far is the only one on record. The split trail can be identified (apart from the split trail) in that the shield was angled back on each of the sides, the box trail had a more squarish shape. There is an inner shield, and as stated the gun could traverse 5 degrees either side of centre, there wasa complicated "sub frame" that allowed this movement, and the rubber gaiters on the axle covered the axle as the carriage moved from side to side. The split trail did not require this adaptation as it could be traversed normally.Split trail guns were sent to the Middle East and used primarily by Commonwealth forces, it was not popular with the RA due to length of the trails.....however, anything that could move or fire would have been sent to France due to the lack of equipment available (sound familiar ?????) My question was why every one was refering to the guns as 18 Pounders when they could just as easily be Mk1 25 Pounders also known as 18/25 Pounders. Both types according to some books served in France. I was asking for the identifying feature in the posted photographs. From your comments they are 18/25 pounders and the terminolgy used by some posters has been confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.c Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Good pics, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You are correct, the gun was officialy the 25pdr MkI, however it was commonly called the 18/25pdr for the reason it used the 18pdr barrel converted to take the "new" 25pdr round. The breech was an iterupted screw type, not a Wellin as I first said however. To boilt it down to basics, field guns during WWI were Howitzers (4.5") and the 18pdr, which fired a flat trajectory shot. The decision was to produce a "dual purpose" field gun, that would replace the howitzer and the field gun. Cost constraints basically led to the use of the large number of 18pdrs left over, they were easily converted, and barrels could be fitted on a newly designed (Vickers) box trail carriage. Drawings etc are titled 25pdr MkI, however, it was more commonly known as the 18/25pdr. The No 24 Limber was obsolete by 1939, having been replaced by the No 27, the 27 was better in that the varios tools could be carried, and was designed to carry the platform. Here again, I have not seen any evidence of the earlier No24 Limber being used by the BEF, despite the fact that there was a lot of obsolete vehicles that accompanied the BEF to France. Details I have come from the Osprey book on the 25pdr, and this outlines the history of the MkI and the later Mk's. So yes officially the 25pdr MkI.......known as the 18/25pdr. George. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Just to clarify, both the 18pdr and 25pdr MkI (18/25 pdr) were used in France, some 18pdrs were used in North Africa too. A quantity of 18pdrs were sent to Australia. The 18 pdr "proper", was the WWI gun, modified to take pneumatic tyres utilising the Martin Parry stub axle attachment. Defining features are the recuperator over the barrel and the pole trail. The MkI 25pdr, has a box trail, the recuperator is now in the cradle, below the barrel. They are quite distinct, here the photos are captioned 25 - 18 pounders !!!! These do show the different style of shield seen on the box trail and split trail guns however. George. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The guns you are describing are MkIV 18 Pounders which had the recuperator moved under the barrel as you record. Presumably all the 18/25 Pounder converstions were produced from this particular MK of 18 Pounder. Hence a good indicator to these guns being 18/25 Pounders but not 100% unless all the guns of this MK were converted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:18pdrTowedByMorrisTractor1938.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The 18pdr surronded by German troops is the 18 pdr MkII, it has the hydro pneumatic recoil system, all the photographs I have of abandoned guns in France show this type of recuperator. The MkIV 18pdr seems to be the gun converted to take the 25pdr ammunition, according to Wiki, 611 were converted prior to WWII, and over 800 during. 18 pdrs adopted the same limber used in WWI but with the Martin Parry conversion. There is one photo of Lord Gort inspecting artillery, with the No 27 Limber alongside an 18 pdr. The 18pdr used fixed ammunition (shell and cartridge case) whereas the 18/25 and 25 pdr used seperate ammunition. It is possible that the 27 limber could hold the fixed ammunition of the 18 pdr but I have not checked. So what you are saying is that not all the seemingly 18/25 pdrs were that, but some were in fact 18 pdr MkIV. Photographs I have of the MkIV 18 pdr however only show them with the spoked artillery wheels. A lot of information is missing for this period to be definitive, but these show a number of captured guns from the BEF. Captured guns 2 shows what I think are 18/25 pdr, 18 pdrs, 2 pdrs, some Hotchkiss to the right and in the back at least four 3" 20cwt AA guns on the 4 wheeled trailer. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 704 18 pdr conversions and 214 standard 18 pdr's were left at Dunkirk not all MK IV P'S were re-chambered for 25 pdr rounds. The Mk IV P Guns were built as 18 pdr's and later converted when the need for a more potent round was required. The no 27 limber's at the time must have been fitted with ammunition trays from the No 24 Limber as the standard 27 tray does not accept the fixed 18 pdr round but both trays have the same external dimesions ! Rob.......................rnixartillery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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