restoration Ozzie Saladin

[Aussie]

Someone told me that these brakes were used on Rolls some years (if not decades) earlier - not sure if that's true. They look very complicated but basically there are two pressure (disc) plates, inner and outer, with a central plate in between. The central plate moves with the wheel so when it's squashed it stops. The outer pressure plate can only move forward and back along the line of the axle, and the adjusting ring (with the serrated teeth) is used with the "special tool" to tighten the brake by screwing the outer plate in against the central plate. There are two hydraulic cylinders that push on the inner face of the inner pressure plate. There are also ball bearings involved in this process - the the inner plate can swivel to a limited extent and this pushes the BB out to help stabilise the pressure (they are opposite the cylinders). Can't imagine why they used boring-old drum brakes on the Saracens, etc!

 

I like the look of those O rings in lieu of cork packings. Do you have the size/specifications?

Edited March 3, 2014 by Aussie

[cooler07]

Priceless!!!! OOOps sorry was to warn out after that job couldn't type or spell......:nut:

 

I have been working between on 2 Ferret's and then the Saladin! It's been a long weekend.

 

Everything you said about the brake system in correct and yes I have the info on O-rings I will get that up here to day.

 

As for making the other seals I'm still waiting for info on that.

[Aussie]

Another update, and a couple of questions at the end.

1. The brake cables. Wasted quite a bit of time pulling a couple out from the outside, then finally a flash of inspiration! Just get inside and knock them out (after removing the locking bolt on the outside, of course. Don't think you really need to open up the housing - this was while I was struggling to pull them out.

A gentle knock and out they came!

Went and got some gloss paint. Had lots of choices for colour... Think the ADF olive drab was painted on bits that were "on show" and the other bits left in UK DBG. Plus rust, of course.

Then needle-scaled to remove heavy rust and most of the paint. Big paint flakes are much less messy than fine wire-brushed dust.

Then wire brushed (on angle grinder) to remove the residual bloom. Guess this would have come off if I'd kept at the "rattle gun" but would have taken ages.

Rust converter (starting to look good!). The top is gloss deep brunswick green from earlier work. The colour isn't important since it's just for protection at this stage.

Two coats of undercoat

Then two coats of gloss enamel. A rough approximation of the final (matte) colour but thought gloss would give better protection. Will roughen this up a bit before the final coats, which will be a fair way down the track, and might just leave the gloss on bits that are out of sight.

Now - my questions!

1. I still can't work out how to get the electrical cables off. For instance, one has one lead going in on the inside and two coming out on the exterior. I'll attack the knurled knobs but the ones removed just seem to show a rubber bung. Do these come out with their sheaths on, or do I need to actually remove the sheaths from the cables? Doesn't seem easy to do this because they have plugs on the ends.

2. Should the inside of the wheel housing be painted? I know the bevel boxes shouldn't be but not sure about the housings, since I think there is a bit of oil sloshing around in there. However there wasn't anything other than a thick coat of rust on the two in question.

3. Should the inside of the torsion bar adjuster brackets be painted? The adjusters seem to be quite a tight fit and work a bit like bearings, so are they better just greased?

Anyhow, it's good for the morale to have the beast looking a bit cleaner and slightly less of a basket case!

James

Edited March 19, 2014 by Aussie

[Starfire]

Starting to look really good, there's hope for the old girl yet

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Aussie]

My next job is to disconnect the hull suspension brackets. Removing the torsion tube involves either "extractor FV 21894" (which I don't have) or a home-made one. Apparently consists of a split ring that fits in a groove on the tube, then fit the extractor over it to pull the tube out.

So.. I wonder if someone could post a picture of the extractor or provide a few measurements to help me make one?

Thanks

James

[Aussie]

A mini-update (too lazy tonight). Nothing momentous - still pulling bits to pieces.

1. Removed the torsion tubes with heat, heavy hammer and a steel bar (posted in the "I'm stupid" area).

 

For newbies trying to bash things out, I'd recommend steel bars. I was proud of myself early on, thinking of using a bit of heavy rebar, but after bending a heap of these I ended up with bars, which are so much more sensible. Now have a small selection of sizes. Diameter just slightly less than what you're belting, and they won't bend. Heat too if needed, of course.

 

2. Removing the ball joints from the steering arms!

 

Bought a ball joint remover but while it's OK for cars, it was too small for these, so if you get one make sure it's big enough (i.e. opens out enough to reach the end of the shaft). The other way is the forked rod that is used to lever the joint out, although this apparently usually damages the rubber boots.

A bit of googling suggested that most mechanics just whack the housing, and this worked: a crow bar to press against the shaft (not overly hard), then smack the knuckle - i.e. the end of the steering arm, NOT the ball joint - and the shock of this pops the joint out, with the rubber boot undamaged. (Well, it's pretty ordinary anyway but have some NOS)

 

3. The hull brackets. Got them all off and dismantled - amazing how many fiddly little bits are involved

The lower hull bracket bearings and torsion bar tubes were full of grease rather than oil. Oil is supposed to flow in the tube between the two bearings, and there was no way of that happening, which probably explains why they were so dry and seized. Shows how important it is to know what lubricant goes where!

 

4. More toys! The shipment finally arrived from UK with turret and bits (thanks Jim), wheel stations, new tyres and bits'n'bobs.

So the 10 year plan is still on track!

James

[Aussie]

Getting closer to replacing the first wheel station and hull bracket, so I'd be grateful for some advice.

One way is to put the hull bracket on first, then the wheel station later.

However my NOS RF wheel station has the hull bracket attached, so another option is to attach the hull brackets to the wheel stations and then offer the lot up to the hull. This might be simpler than making the jig needed to put the hull brackets on alone, but I wonder what experts would do?

Also, the EMER advises a "soft gasket" of Araldite between the hull bracket and the hull. Is this important or just a bit over-engineered?

Thanks

James

[Aussie]

Some progress but now I've hit another speed bump!

First, the progress:

1. Removed the wiring, pinions and cleaned and painted the rest of the interior (actually repainted the lot because I wasn't happy with the previous colour)

2. Lightly sanded back earlier exterior coats and painted olive drab. I've found a photo of the Saladin in service in 1965 and the colour is correct but looks a bit different in my photos. The photo was in a museum so not sure about its copyright - will post it if permission is granted. Also cleaned and painted a heap of other bits and pieces.

 

3. Spent an enjoyable while sorting and labelling the wiring, and drawing diagrams that will hopefully still make sense when I try putting it back in. Some wiring was ok but a lot is beyond help, so have ordered as many replacements as I could manage and should be able to make up the missing bits.

4. Have decided to fix the hull brackets to the wheel stations and then offer the lot up to the hull. Waiting on a few O rings and torsion sleeves before this can progress. Still not sure if Araldite under the hull brackets is really necessary but I guess it wouldn't be that hard to do.

I'll post the speed bumps separately because I'm having a few problems putting it all on on post.

James

[Aussie]

Apologies for the separate post. These are the speed bumps!

 

1. Stud welding. Snapped quite a few hull studs off while removing the tin work, however stud welding replacements isn't quite as simple as I'd hoped. There are two types of stud welding: Capacitor Discharge (single phase) and Drawn Arc (3 phase). There's a good description of these on kcdstudwelding.com.au (no financial interest in that firm). It turns out that CD doesn't work on armour plate - I took down the rear hull observation flap for them to try, and the pics shows the marks where CD studs were easily knocked off, and the two Drawn Arc studs that were perfect. So I need to arrange 3 phase stud welding (which is a bit difficult with single phase to the shed). Have a contact who says he has a mobile 3 phase unit so hopefully that will be the case.

 

2. The bevel box pinions are giving me considerable grief. I have NOS oil seals to put in but to do I need to remove two locknuts on the pinion shaft and this is proving a real challenge. Think I'm going to need to drill several outer nuts off and either find replacements or get new ones made.

The other problem is that even after getting one of the shaft's nuts off, I can't figure out how to get the oil seal out. There is a central sleeve that needs to come out but I can't budge it and I'm not even sure that it's a sleeve and not threaded.

So I'd be very grateful for advice on how to do this!

3. The two front bevel boxes and pinions have seized bearings, so they are soaking in diesel for a few weeks but shouldn't put up too much of a fight with replacing the bearings.

Thanks for your help

James

Edited August 9, 2014 by Aussie

[Catch 22 LBDR]

I broke a lot of studs off the hull of my Ferret and this is what I done;

Grind off the old stud, grind a point onto your new stud and weld it using a standard arc welder. You will need a very high quality rod, the rule of thumb is to use a better rod than the steel you are welding,( you will notice that when the hull is blasted that the welds come up shinny) also try and angle the rod to direct the heat into the armour steel to prevent melting the stud away and to get good penetration. Then clean up the weld with a grinder. I like to leave a good shoulder on the weld for extra strength so I drilled the holes on the item being fitted and used washers if needed.

 

I hope this helps

Ross

[Aussie]

Thanks Ross

I might need to go that way if stud welding doesn't work out.

There was also a post somewhere else describing grinding down a bolt so the head was about 5mm thick (I think) then TIG welding that onto the hull. My experience with welding is barely above beginner status so I'll get a professional to do the studs, but it's great to have a few options.

James

[timbo]

Stunning work James well done and keep going. I visited Jim while he was doing your turret so can attest to the effort he put into it!

 

I did mine the easy way and bought it after Jon (Fourfox) had done all the hard work...

 

Cheers

Tim

[Aussie]

Thanks for the kind remarks Tim!

I'm actually embarrassed every time I post my amateurish exploits after looking at the extraordinary things that others are doing, but it's still great fun and the help from folk on this forum is invaluable. Pity I have a day job that restricts my time in the shed, but SWMBO won't let me retire (yet)! Now we're off to Europe for a fortnight because she was threatened by the kids with a "significant" birthday party - makes no sense to me but best not to say that out loud!

James

[101 Ron]

The seal on the end of the bevel box is removed with a seal remover, which is a hook like device with handle.

It gets under the seals lip and and kind of flips it out.

Tim has new thin locking nuts for the bevel boxes in stock.

http://www.gettoolsdirect.com.au/kincrome-seal-puller-325mm-13-8060.html?gdftrk=gdfV26854_a_7c442_a_7c1200_a_7c87515&gclid=CJLV54_ek8ACFZcnvQodtisAIQ

[Aussie]

Thanks Ron

Thought there should be a better tool for the job!

Thanks for the link.

[Aussie]

I'm getting close to joining up hull brackets to NOS wheel stations but have hit another speed bump. Posted in "IMBS" but posting here as well coz I really need some advice!

 

The lower links of the wheel stations have an O-ring, bush and an oil seal housing/cap, which is slightly different to the (older) ones I removed. The problem is that my hull brackets have metal sleeves pushed into their inner ends and they won't fit over the NOS set-up.

Wheel station upper; hull bracket lower:

If I remove the caps the hull bracket will fit, although a bit loosely, but if I do this the metal sleeve would be separated from the bronze bush by only on O-ring, and I doubt that this would survive for long.

If remove the metal sleeves (they seem tightly pressed so not sure how) this would leave small gaps where they fitted, so at this stage I'm thinking I should cut or grind the metal sleeve flush, then fit the hull bracket over the caps.

But this seems tantamount to butchery, so I'd greatly appreciate sage advice!

Thanks

James

[Aussie]

Still fiddling with fettling the older hull brackets with the newer wheel stations - am getting oil seal housings machined to fit between them (waiting, waiting..) and adapting Saracen front bevel boxes to fit by swapping the end plates (will post when they're done).

So not much to report but finally got the new tyres fitted to the rims and after painting red dots on them I stood back and thought this was a great mod for the Cent and worth sharing.... (would have been better if it was April 1st).

 

[Caddy]

Just out of curiosity what Mk is the Cent? Looks like a 20lb main gun.

[Aussie]

Yes 20pdr A barrel (B barrels have a fume extractor showing as a swelling half way down the barrel)

A potted history..

01ZR10 was built in 1945 and issued as a Mk2 in 1946. Then upgraded to Mk3 in 1948 and later to Mk5 with extra glacis plate when it was rebuilt in the UK in1957.

Went to Hong Kong in the 1960s and was serving with C Squadron of the Royal Hussars in 1971.

In mid 1971 it moved to Australia and was allocated 169136. However it was never deployed and was used for spare parts for 1st Armoured Regt until preservation in 1974.

When I took over custodianship it came with a mono wheel spare petrol tank, although that's just an historical curiosity and was never used in Australia, due to its tendency to cause disasters when reversed over, etc. (In fact it partially detached while reversing it into the shed so it now sits on a separate stand behind the tank and won't be driven with it on again).

 

The truck couldn't cope with the roads around here so it was driven along a few km of dirt roads, and the mess it made when turning corners was unbelievable! It took a working bee the next day to fix up the roads before the council found out!

James

Edited November 7, 2014 by Aussie

[Caddy]

Completely off topic, but have you got any photos of the fighting compartment? Just wondered how that mark's interior is laid out.

[Aussie]

For a vehicle weighing over 50 tons it is very cramped inside so it's hard to take good pics, however I've taken a few that should give a fair idea. Basically Commander is in a round, rotating cupola on the right, with gunner sitting in front (but lower). The driver is in front of the gunner but a lower again and gets in through his own hatch on the front right of hull His position can be seen (just) from the turret if the screen behind his seat is lifted. The loader/radio operator/tea maker, etc gets in through a rectangular hatch to the left of Commanders hatch and stands on the floor to the left of the gun. He can operate the Besa MG and bomb thrower, and rounds for the 20 pdr are in ready racks on the side of the turret to his left (as well as elsewhere if needed). There is a round "escape hatch" on the back of the turret but its purpose was really for removing the earlier 17 pdr guns, that had to come out that way. The controls for starting the Auxiliary Generator are on the back of the hull and the turret has to be rotated to get at them.

 

View from front -right. Commanders cupola with round hatch open. Gunners scope visible at bottom of pic and loaders hatch to left of the cupola

 

Loader stands to left of gun and shells collect in the basket

Commanders seat to right and Gunner's seat lower and to left of pic.

Gunners view

Bomb thrower (Left front of turret, to left of coaxial MG which is to left of 20 pdr)

Right side of Commanders position

"Escape hatch"

Left rear of turret

Edited November 8, 2014 by Aussie

[Caddy]

Lovely!

#end of thread derailment#

[timbo]

Great pics - the Saladin will make a good companion....!

[datadawg]

The MK 6 Saracen was a MK 3 that had extra armour added and a few other upgrades, itself a MK 2 with reverse flow cooling. Externally, the most telling are that the MK 6 does not have a rear gun ring or roof window, Has a round flange around the base of the turret, has a squared cover over the fuel filter and has heavy armour plates welded to the sides. Internally, the MK 6 is fitted with brown spall liners.

 

Cheers,

Terry

Terry, maybe a dumb question, but I hope you can educate me. Was the MK6 applied as a new designation for an existing vehicle (so they took MK3, uparmored it and it became MK6) or was it new construction - a new vehicle built from scratch? If it was uparmoring an existing vehicle, do you know whether the donor MK3 would have also been overhauled at the time? In other words, would they take the MK3, tear it apart to renew everything and then uparmor the hull? My MK6 (which I still haven't laid eyes on) is missing its data plate, so I am trying to figure out whether it saw a full REME overhaul in its service life.

[Starfire]

I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, all of the Mk 5 and 6 Saracens were rebuilds of earlier vehicles. During the upgrade process they were stripped to a bare hull, modified and then completely refitted/refurbished. There are many, many more differences between the early and late marks other than the extra armour.

 

Cheers,

Terry