van der Linde Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Hi. Just wondered if anyone had detailed photos of how the pannier frames attach to the bike. It is a late '41 model and, therefore, never originally came equiped with any panniers but, as I like the idea of how it will look (when I finish the restore) it is something that I am persueing. I have, already, swapped the original 'small' rack for the 'longer' pannier rack model, acquired a pair of NOS pannier frames and have the two sets of pannier frame brackets (repros). I do understand, though, I may have to make adjustments (read that as,"drilling holes and buying/making other bits"!) to the mudguard area as well as look at sourcing other parts to make the look complete, remembering that the original mudguard that I have was not made to have these parts. Look forward to hearing back from yo all! van der Linde. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 These three shots should give you the gist of it I think. The only holes I think you will have to drill in your mudguard, are the two at the very rear bottom for the cross bar support that is spaced off. The four other brackets are just flat with the appropriate bends/slots/holes. I can make other measurements if required. However the bike is parked right in the corner. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 Excellent, Ron! Just the help I needed . I can see exactly how the two, lower brackets fit to the bike, now. A couple of questions, if I can? With the front two brackets, and how they attach, will I need a longer bolt to secure them? With the rear two brackets, remembering that the setup that I have never had frames fitted, will I need the 'mudguard bracket', 'spacers' and anything else for that matter to allow fitment? If so, do you happen to know what the part codes are so I can start looking around? Thanks for your time. It helps a great deal. I may have to pick your brains again, at some point, Ron! Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Since the bracket material is only about 1/8" (3mm). you can probably use the original studs, but longer if you feel it necessary. Here is a scan from the pannier page with part numbers. I haven't noticed the spacers? It's possible I fitted mine as that's where they lined up best?? It was a few years ago. I expect you can get these brackets from John Budgen or Draganfly. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Terry Roberts at Metal Magic also does all the W/NG pannier & rear bracketry....... It's worth noting that panniers and pillion kit for W/NGs were first introduced for contract C11103 (early 42)....my own W/NG (XG 24366) is from this one....... However, the War Department also specified conversion sets for earlier non-pannier/pillion equipped machines.......so drilling a few odd extra holes is arguably authentic at the end of the day......and the same practice was also specified for most other WD bikes, such as M20, 16H, etc........ Never part with the earlier (rare) rear carrier and fittings though.......always worth retaining should you get the urge to convert back to early spec'.........this is what I've done with my 1940 16H........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Funny you mention Terry, Steve. He phoned me today and wants to check some measurements for a W/NG rear carrier. His sister and cousin live nearby to me, so he's often here making measurements.......then promptly looses them on his way home. Doh! Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 All sound good, to me, guys! Looking at the top photo, in consideration, it looks like a pretty easy bracket to knock up, as well as the two spacers. I ended up having to get the four lower frame brackets (that have bends and folds and slots/holes drilled in them, etc) from Draganfly and it was these that I couldn't work out, exactly, how their fitment was made. Ron saved the day, though! With regards to the original rear rack, Steve..............BUGGER! HeyHo............but, at the end of the day it was a straight swap for something I needed and something I had no need for....... Would be grateful if anyone has contact details for Terry, as he could be of interest if I find anything else missing? Just as a bit of info, the 'bike has these details: Engine Number ..... 11,656 Frame Number ..... XG 21,380 therefore, would it be correct that this would have a contract number of C1039181 with the RASC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Terry Roberts is on metaltel@yahoo.co.uk. Mention me or Steve if you contact him. Your frame is from contract C10477 which is a bit complicated as it has two sets of census numbers and some were sent to the RAF and RN. But my best guess is census number C4590305. But Steve might know better? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I have some copies of the original Ministry of Supply Ariel contract record books....they detail dates, number of bikes, spare engines, frames, forks, etc, supplied along with each contract......I will dig 'em out and have a look....... My own W/NG is C4693514......I've had her nearly 20 years and have restored her twice in that time, the 2nd rebuild being to tidy her up and to fit all the various original components I'd managed to source.......she is now about 98% correct to the factory spec' when built, in great mechanical and cosmetic condition, and superbly reliable.........the only mod's I've done are to the gearbox ratio's (early post-war civvy to make it more road-friendly in modern traffic) and a larger engine sprocket.......plus a cheeky Red Hunter cam in the engine and a larger 276 carburetor in place of the restrictive 275 original.......she is now rather quick and will hit a genuine 70 mph.......and one of the few WD bikes fitted with decent brakes from the start...! When I found the W/NG (in bits), the steering damper knob had the name "Nancy" carved into the bakelite..........although a little chipped, I've retained this original part rather than fitting a NOS component......it's all about keeping that little link with the bike's history..........I wonder if Nancy was a sweetheart, wife, girlfriend or mother....? Still, to this day she remains known as Nancy rather than the Ariel......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Regarding the rear carrier, do the 'middle' mounting stays bolt to holes in the mudguard or via 'clamp on' brackets to the mudguard stays? I ask as I have a(at a guess a modern repro) carrier that looks like the one in the diagram but mounts in that fashion. Or should I say it was mounted in that fashion to the bike it came off, and obviously was not for that machine (BSA). If I can get a proper identity for it it will help when selling it on. Cant access my photos at the moment so cant post one but, without having it in front of me, I would reasonably confident say that it is the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 They bolt directly through the mudguard stay, along with the toolbox bracket on the O/S. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Terry Roberts is on metaltel@yahoo.co.uk. Mention me or Steve if you contact him. Your frame is from contract C10477 which is a bit complicated as it has two sets of census numbers and some were sent to the RAF and RN. But my best guess is census number C4590305. But Steve might know better? Ron Just a quickie with regards to the above, before it has to made into a new Post: I was trying to make some sense of the numbers used on these WD machines using Orchard & Maddens book (as well as Draganfly!). Seeing that my engine number was 11,656 (and the frame ties in) I, tried to, use some common sense to work out what the number would be that is painted on the fuel tank. I can see that the O&M book says it is Contract Number C10477. Thank you, Ron, for verifying this for me. But, looking in the column that says, WD Serial Number Allocation, there are two sets of numbers: 458926-4590925 and 1038302-1039801. Understanding that 1,500 were allocated to Chilwell and Ashchurch, each, together with some going to RAF and RN I can see that it could be quite confusing. In fact, I have replies back from IWM and RAF saying they cannot help! Can someone point me in the right direction as to what number would be painted on the fuel tank? I am guessing it was one of those used in the WD Serial Number Allocation. Or, am I barking up the wrong proverbial and was a completely different number system used? Would be great to hear if anyone has detailed information of what the bike's number actually was but, at the same time, I would prefer to have 'C' number that starts '10...' rather than the ubiquitous '4....'. Can't help but going against the grain :cheesy: Thanks again, Ron, for all the help. Those photos you are posting are priceless, not just to me, but to all those out there asking for help. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Well using O&M as a reference. Your frame number is the 880th bike built from that contract of 3000. So I calculated your tank number to come from the first batch of 1500 (C4590305). No one will no the history of your bike, so forget that! This contract is also further complicated with some machines being diverted to RAF/RN. It's all a bit guesswork and artistic licence. If you think your bike might be the 880th from the second batch of numbers? You can calculate it accordingly. But I don't understand your reluctance to have a tank number that starts with 4? I was hoping Steve might pitch in with better info. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 C10477 is indeed a contract for which only incomplete records survive. The RAOC Chilwell records include the comment "Probably 422 for RAF Depots - See letter 11/8/1941" - I can't imagine that army clerks enjoyed writing the word 'probably' in their files ! RAOC records indicate that they definitely took their full 1500 so the RAF (and RN ?) machines must have come from the original RASC entitlement. The RAOC bikes were delivered between 11/10/1941 and 19/12/1941. Would this imply that the RAF machines referred to in the August 1941 letter were delivered first ? Unfortunately, there is no link made between census numbers and frame numbers delivered. Bearing in mind that DME circular B.273 instructing 'Fitting pannnier bags and pillion seat conversion sets' to Ariel M/C dated 12/6/1942 came under the heading 'Immediate Action', then it would seem that all W/NGs in service should have been fitted with panniers. That XG21380 wasn't might just indicate that it was an RAF machine as photographs of RAF Ariels show that they don't seem to have been subject to the retro-fitment of pannier sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 They bolt directly through the mudguard stay, along with the toolbox bracket on the O/S. Ron Thanks for that Ron, much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) C10477 is indeed a contract for which only incomplete records survive. The RAOC Chilwell records include the comment "Probably 422 for RAF Depots - See letter 11/8/1941" - I can't imagine that army clerks enjoyed writing the word 'probably' in their files ! RAOC records indicate that they definitely took their full 1500 so the RAF (and RN ?) machines must have come from the original RASC entitlement. The RAOC bikes were delivered between 11/10/1941 and 19/12/1941. Would this imply that the RAF machines referred to in the August 1941 letter were delivered first ? Unfortunately, there is no link made between census numbers and frame numbers delivered. Bearing in mind that DME circular B.273 instructing 'Fitting pannnier bags and pillion seat conversion sets' to Ariel M/C dated 12/6/1942 came under the heading 'Immediate Action', then it would seem that all W/NGs in service should have been fitted with panniers. That XG21380 wasn't might just indicate that it was an RAF machine as photographs of RAF Ariels show that they don't seem to have been subject to the retro-fitment of pannier sets. Well done with the above Rik! As always, far more precise and complicated than I could do. So there you go VDL! In my opinion you might as well use any number you like from that contract. Just the same as dressing the bike up with unit markings, like say your Granddads old unit. It's artistic Licence. Let us know your thoughts though. Good luck Ron Edited July 3, 2012 by Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Thanks, guys, for all your input. It goes a long way in trying to unravel, and understand, the urban myths and mysteries out there! With regards to the C10*** rather than C45*** number, Ron: In my own, personal opinion, that is I have noticed more restored 'bikes with the latter than the former (and, by the way, why is that?) and just thought it would be "something a little more different", that's all :cheesy: That's only my opinion but, there again, I doubt I have seen more than a couple of dozen and, should imagine, there are way more than that if I started looking! With these numbers am I right to think that the C10*** relate to RASC allocations while the C45*** relate to RAOC? If so, then what type of number would have been allocated to the RAF and RN? From what has been mentioned about some of the contract going to RAF then this would tie in, quite nicely, with the original owners personal history of my 'bike being "......taken off the local airfield.....". It would be interesting to know if this 'bike had a C**** number painted on its tank when it was RAF. But, considering that I have already got it in me head to restore the 'bike to army green colours (I have already got the paint for it!) and that I am adding a few, let's say,discrecionary items as well to try and make it to its, former, late '41 condition then I am a bit loath to going down the road of making the 'bike in RAF colours/trim now: All to do with time which means money. Something that I have become devoid of since starting the restore! There again, though, is there anything to say the 'bike would not have been in some kind of green colour scheme even if it was allocated to the RAF? Would love to know that and make me feel a bit happier :laugh:If so, would the RAF ask for their 'bikes to be in certain trims? I would really like to build the 'bike with my old pa in mind. In particular to a period when he was in the landings at Anzio to liberate Rome. Not knowing who he was with (as he was so not talkative about his efforts) I do know he had dealings with the RASC in that theatre. In fact, I took photos of various headstones when in the British Cemetary, at Anzio that show this. So, with regards to this I could use RASC numbers on the tank, which would mean I could use C1039181, if I use the 880th engine number rule. Is that correct? In a nutshell, then: Would be great to hear if my 'bike was RAF and what C number would have been used on the tank. Also, would be even better if I could use a shade of green for a RAF machine. On the other hand, if this doesn't work out then I can still pursue the path of a RASC machine and dedicate to me ol' man. (This has gone a bit off topic, me thinks.......! :red:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well since you have probably got to make it up a bit. There would be nothing wrong in marking it as RAF. Again, no records survive regarding the numbers. But here is an original pic of W/NG's with the RAF. Note, sometimes a roundel is applied to the tank. The bikes supplied to the RAF throughout the war were supplied in exactly the same livery as a WD bike ( service brown or olive drab). Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Here is my Enfield WD/CO from an RAF contract.......with made up number! Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 That all sounds brill, Ron! At least, now, I don't have to worry about drastically changing the colour scheme. I can have two paths open to me: One, to follow the RAF route and add a RAF number (of some sorts!) on the tank together with the RAF roundels - btw, would they have been on both sides of the tank? Two, to use the RASC number and find out what part of the army me dad was attached to, going on the little I know about his landing at Peter's Beach for the Anzio landings. Then, possibly, I could use some artistic license to have the Divisional and Arms of Service signs painted on the tank and wherever. Blimey! And all this from asking about pannier frame fitments.........!!! What a forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) You might have to wait for 79X100 to pick up this thread for more information on RASC/RAOC. He's a right bleeding rivet counter!!! But where would we be without the likes. Ron Edited July 4, 2012 by Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Also I'm sure the markings are on both sides of the tank. I have seen them painted on the front guard instead of the tank though. Isn't this a great picture? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 You might have to wait for 79X100 to pick up this thread for more information on RASC/RAOC. He's a right bleeding rivet counter!!! But where would we be without the likes. Ron Ab-so-loot-lee bleedin' right! :nut: I would have been one of those if it weren't for the fact my 'bike is only 90% original AND that part of its history reveals it would have had a rebuild/refit at some time. Just before it was "......taken from an airfield..........", I believe!!! :cool2: Hence, I decided to bring it back to its late '41 guise with a just a few of the extras that it would have had, such as the panniers, really. I did have the original tyres (if you can say that......I might as well have said, "original oil"!) but they had to go as they would have broken and perished, just like the original tank knee rubbers-buggered to bits!!!. I may have to ask opinions in another post about how to rejuvenate my original Lycett saddle, as it has the beginnings of a very small tear showing........... Am waiting, with baited breath, to hear back from 79x100 van der Linde Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Linde Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Also I'm sure the markings are on both sides of the tank. I have seen them painted on the front guard instead of the tank though.Isn't this a great picture? Ron WOW!!! Could have been taken from a film set with the way everyone is placed! One of the best shots I've ever seen Where, on Earth, do you find all this wonderful stuff, Ron? van der Linde Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Mainly from my Dutch and Belgium rivet counter friends. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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