question Ww2 british canvas

[thedawnpatrol]

NO, IT's not another thread about 'What colour was British Canvas

 

This is far more important !

 

WHAT TYPE OF BUCKLES WERE USED IN WW2 ON BRITISH CANVAS ?

 

Now, we see these days the standard Brass webbing buckles, as used on all kit, but i am led to believe, and have proof that a different type was used that being the steel sliding gripper type, not that used on American canvas, but simular.

 

There is a name for these, but i don't know it. i have an original cab canvas with some on ?

 

What do you think guys ?

 

Jules

[43rdrecce]

'Roko' is the type of tension buckle used on many WW2 British vehicles. These had the distinctive 'C' end tip to the web straps. I believe .they were also used on US personal equipment though of a different pattern.

I have been looking for NOS examples for ages. There is a modern version of the Roko buckle, but it is much simpler than the WW2 type. I'll post a couple of photos of examples from my Daimler. Many British tanks had these Roko fittings.

I have a collection of crabby originals removed from my Daimler and other WW2 vehicles but have struggled to find replacements.

 

Some of the early WW2 Fordson WOT 15cwts had leather straps on the canvas. These started to be replaced by the end of the war and wholesale after the war when the standard 'Mills' webbing buckles and end tags became the norm.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[thedawnpatrol]

Thats very interesting Paul, we are talking along the same lines, i'm having a new canvas made for my Humber and have asked the company to fit these buckles as i too was convinced that they are more in keeping with the correct type.

 

Interestingly we dug a Wellington Bomber crash site many years ago and found several of this type of buckle on what must have been equipment straps, and that crashed in 1940.

Do post some pivtures please, i'm trying to find the Wellington ones but can't at the moment.

 

Regards

 

Jules

[goanna]

Can somebody please post a few pics of the buckles in question ?

 

Thanks Mike

[43rdrecce]

Roko 1 1/4" tension buckle and 'c' end tag original type used on early Daimlers, Valentines etc

 

 

Post war 1" simplified version again with the c tag. This type again used on the Daimler and other vehicles

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[43rdrecce]

Enlargement of a photo taken on the Daimler production line showing the Roko strap and end tag in a Daimler engine bay.

 

[goanna]

OK

 

Thanks for those pics .

 

 

Those ROKO buckles loosely resemble the WW2 US style buckles .

 

Mike

[thedawnpatrol]

Paul,

 

Thanks for the photos, but i beg to differer, what you call the 'simplified' post war type was also actually also used in the war.

 

I have recently bought that type new old stock already on a web strap with both ends made up, and the strap is stamped with the makers name and 1943.

 

I'll try and add phoyos later.

 

Jules

[43rdrecce]

Yes I saw those on eBay. They may well be a wartime pattern, certainly that's what the seller was claiming. I haven't come across these as original fittings as all the ones I have seen are fitted to green post war replacement straps. The 1" size are a lot easier to find and I have this simpler type NOS.

Does anyone have a wartime photo of this type in use? It would certainly make my life easier as I have these in quantity and in the 1 1/4" size too. They are not the type shown in the parts list for the Daimler or the Valentine as the drawings show the sliding toothed type.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[MHillyard]

Here are a couple of photos from my collection, The first shows what look like the late type and the second i think is of the vehicle they were working on. I think it is either late war or just post war, will check for writing later.

 

 

[43rdrecce]

Thanks for posting Ooh tricky one that. To me they look like leather straps! I think I can just see the prong of a standard buckle. Difficult to be sure. Any chance of a clearer image? They also seem to me to have pointed ends. Does anyone have a Bedford parts list that would confirm?

 

Both leather and sometimes even bonded rubber straps were used on early WW2 British vehicles but as shortages of these materials occurred they were replaced with cheaper webbing alternatives. Rubber was used on early Daimlers too, the crew water bottle straps and the stowage for the Hellesen lamp are shown in the parts list as alternative early rubber parts.

 

Can anyone contribute confirmation of types for the main vehicle manufacturers?

 

To return to Jules's original question, the Humber armoured cars used standard Mills type webbing straps judging by the wartime stowage diagrams I have for the Humber III & IV armoured cars. Maybe this applied to all of Humber's production?

 

Regards

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks for posting Ooh tricky one that. To me they look like leather straps! I think I can just see the prong of a standard buckle. Difficult to be sure. Any chance of a clearer image? They also seem to me to have pointed ends. Does anyone have a Bedford parts list that would confirm?

 

Hi Paul,

The photo is not of a Bedford, it is a Fordson WOT6 Machinery ( mobile workshop ). I might have photo somewhere, of one in service, but think it is early 50's, so not conclusive evidence.

[43rdrecce]

Thanks Richard,

 

I should pay attention! I know that some of the earlier Fords had leather straps. I had a very original but knackered 1941 canvas for a WOT2 when I had my WOTs. This was all leather fitted and I've heard from other WOT owners that some of the earlier vehicles were so fitted.

Have you seen those toothed buckles on other Daimlers? They were certainly fitted on the earliest ACs and I've removed some very tatty examples from several hulks. I've struggled to find nos examples. As I've said in earlier posts I have quite a few of the other Roko buckles and in fact these are still commonly used on saddlery though they seem to be chrome or nickel plated nowadays.

 

I believe the Dingo also originally had these 1 1/4" toothed buckles and stowage straps.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks Richard,

 

I should pay attention! I know that some of the earlier Fords had leather straps. I had a very original but knackered 1941 canvas for a WOT2 when I had my WOTs. This was all leather fitted and I've heard from other WOT owners that some of the earlier vehicles were so fitted.

Have you seen those toothed buckles on other Daimlers? They were certainly fitted on the earliest ACs and I've removed some very tatty examples from several hulks. I've struggled to find nos examples. As I've said in earlier posts I have quite a few of the other Roko buckles and in fact these are still commonly used on saddlery though they seem to be chrome or nickel plated nowadays.

 

I believe the Dingo also originally had these 1 1/4" toothed buckles and stowage straps.

 

Regards

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I have come across those awful toothed buckles on Dingos, they tend to rust and the tooth part does not slide, also they tear the webbing. Is that sort actually called Roko? I know the others are so called and have had new nickel plated ones, then painted with a matt black and fitted to Dingo canvas top covers which I had made at one time. Have seen both types on original Dingo covers, but very likely the covers were all of postwar manufacture.

[43rdrecce]

Thanks Richard,

 

From the photos I've seen the toothed buckles would seem to be the factory fit. No doubt poor durability was the reason they were replaced later on with the nickel plated type. I doubt this was done completely, other than for repairs, until the postwar period though.

I understand that both types were manufactured by Roko, and they had the patent for the 'c' end tags, which also seem to suffer with corrosion.

Difficult one really, to be accurate means using this type with all the inherent problems! The correct khaki webbing in 1 1/4" width can be found as it is the width used for US Army trouser belts. The bit I've struggled with is the hardware which doesn't appear to be obtainable.

 

Regards

 

Paul