question How does a new spec deactivation in the uk affect a RPD?

[Masseyboy89]

Hi all,

 

I am looking at buying an RPD, my question, which I dare say is a stupid one is this -

 

I looked at a RPD at dallas dig out, the reason I didn't buy the gun was because it was a 'cut a way' How ever, this gun cocked and dry fired - I was told that it was a resent deactivation? I thought that the current spec deactivation ment you couldn't do a lot more then hang it on the wall, do machine guns have a different deactivation method that allows it to cock? obviously I would like one I could dry fire, but I also want to be on the right side of the law.

 

should I always expect a new spec RPD always dry fire?

 

Thanks.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Masseyboy89
stupid mistake

[Tony B]

There seem to be so many variations on the type of weapon being de-aced. The most important thing is the metal has the proof marks of either London or Birmingham on it. The paper certificate is nice, but it the Proof Mark on the weapon that makes it legal. Good idea to know where the marks are on your collection, can save a lot of embarresment

[Masseyboy89]

Good idea to know where the marks are on your collection, can save a lot of embarresment

 

Luckily, I only have a MK3 sten right now, so it's easy to keep on top of.. :-D

 

thanks for the info mate, Simon.

[Marmite!!]

There are now three catergories of deac.

 

Pre 95

 

Post 95 (Specs for post 95 can be found here http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=33924&d=1283722868)

 

Post 2010

 

I Haven't compared the Post 95 & 2010 specs yet so not sure how different they are?

 

Current Deac 2010 specifications can be found below..

deactivation-of-firearms-2010.pdf

[Enfield1940]

Most types of LMG - including the RPD - don't need to be welded solid. See pages 35 and 36 of the 2010 deact specs document.

[john fox]

Current Deac 2010 specifications can be found below..

 

useful to finally see the definitive rules re a smoke discharger but at the risk of reopening an old debate - yeah right, can really see that being done in practice, especially the bit about placing the mark near the serial number!

Edited May 7, 2012 by john fox

[Marmite!!]

useful to finally see the definitive rules re a smoke discharger but at the risk of reopening an old debate - yeah right, can really see that being done in practice, especially the bit about placing the mark near the serial number!

 

See below..

AFV Smoke Projectors.pdf

[Panzer nut]

I have been told that due to people exloiting bipod loop holes, all Machine guns from now on have to be welded up with No moving parts. how 100% true this is I am not entirely sure but the source is of sound quality.

Jon

[Marmite!!]

I have been told that due to people exloiting bipod loop holes, all Machine guns from now on have to be welded up with No moving parts. how 100% true this is I am not entirely sure but the source is of sound quality.

Jon

 

The current specs are 2010.. see post #4

[Panzer nut]

The current specs are 2010.. see post #4

yes I saw the post but as I said, due to a loop hole abuse it is either in effect or is about to come into effect, I wil quizz my source some more about it.

Jon

[Marmite!!]

yes I saw the post but as I said, due to a loop hole abuse it is either in effect or is about to come into effect, I wil quizz my source some more about it.

Jon

What loophole are you referring too? the specs are pretty much set in stone so not quite sure what you mean?

As said before it is only a Court of Law that can determine if any laws have been broken, as with the smoke discharges it would take a test case to put that one to bed.

[Enfield1940]

I have been told that due to people exloiting bipod loop holes, all Machine guns from now on have to be welded up with No moving parts.

That only applies to LMG's that share parts with assault rifles, such as the RPK. Prior to the 2010 specs, it was possible to get them certified when deactivated to the LMG spec rather than the assault rifle spec. The 2010 specs close that off: the spec for any AK47 type weapon (including the RPK) is on page 37 = welded up. The list of MGs and LMGs that don't have to be welded up is on page 36.

[RattlesnakeBob]

..and it's as well worth bearing in mind that not all WW2 weapons in this country have been 'de-acted' anyways.....

a good few years ago I was invited to a select gathering of folk to have a look at their weapons collections...there were some truly awesome pieces on show ...now ..understand here, that I am NOT an expert on any weapons but I also do not consider myself a numpty.... in other words....I had a good idea of what I was looking at .....

...holding a Thompson M1 SMG I slid the bolt backwards and had a look at the breech and then through the barrel and worked the mechanism.....

... "It's in lovely condition" I said to the fella...

"the pin assembly and bolt looks complete and undamaged and the barrel is clear....hows this one been deactivated then?".....

..the fella took it back off me and said very quietly

..."mmmmhh....well...mmmmhhh ...it isn't "

I'd not long returned from an extended trip to the Normandy region and had actually been shown a few weapons whilst there by private individuals that were also still very much 'live'.......This chap said that he'd purchased the Thompson in France in the 1970s and had brought it back to the UK tucked away in his caravan........

I don't know how easy it would be to do that nowadays as the last few times I've come back in from France I've either been proper unlucky or they really don't like the look of me because I've had vehicles pretty comprehensively searched on every occasion ...the only time they haven't recently is when I was on my motorbike ( yes you could still hide something I guess if you so wished )..........but.....what I am saying is....

this can't be the only example...they are out there.......

[Enfield1940]

Reminds me of a chap I briefly met in central London some years back when we were completing an eBay deal in person. We were shooting the breeze about militaria and out of the blue he mentioned that he had a live MG34 in his loft that he'd smuggled back from France.

 

As to whether he really did have a live MG in his loft, or was merely a sad fantasist I don't know. Either way, telling someone you've never met before something like that strikes me as a pretty stupid thing to do.

[john fox]

See below..

 

thanks Lee - I had no idea of that letter, or how long ago it came out

[ferretfixer]

..and it's as well worth bearing in mind that not all WW2 weapons in this country have been 'de-acted' anyways.....

a good few years ago I was invited to a select gathering of folk to have a look at their weapons collections...there were some truly awesome pieces on show ...now ..understand here, that I am NOT an expert on any weapons but I also do not consider myself a numpty.... in other words....I had a good idea of what I was looking at .....

...holding a Thompson M1 SMG I slid the bolt backwards and had a look at the breech and then through the barrel and worked the mechanism.....

... "It's in lovely condition" I said to the fella...

"the pin assembly and bolt looks complete and undamaged and the barrel is clear....hows this one been deactivated then?".....

..the fella took it back off me and said very quietly

..."mmmmhh....well...mmmmhhh ...it isn't "

I'd not long returned from an extended trip to the Normandy region and had actually been shown a few weapons whilst there by private individuals that were also still very much 'live'.......This chap said that he'd purchased the Thompson in France in the 1970s and had brought it back to the UK tucked away in his caravan........

I don't know how easy it would be to do that nowadays as the last few times I've come back in from France I've either been proper unlucky or they really don't like the look of me because I've had vehicles pretty comprehensively searched on every occasion ...the only time they haven't recently is when I was on my motorbike ( yes you could still hide something I guess if you so wished )..........but.....what I am saying is....

this can't be the only example...they are out there.......

 

The Deact specs abroad, vary WILDLY Differently to UK specs, & always have! France is particulary lax in it's standards & enforcement of Law in general, I believe?.....

The UK Government constantly tightens up laws in the UK accorss the board,as much as it can get away with.

Hence the thread recently here on the forum with regards to impending introduction of Vehicle class/width/type/weight Etc.

The Crap that is thrown at us is, 'It is to bring it into line with EU law & 'Harmonisation'!.......

 

Yeah? Really? We are lead to believe this statement slavishly, are we? OK, then, Over the water in just about all of the other EU countries. they are STILL allowed to own & keep Hand Guns & Military assualt rifles privately. And be able to shoot hem if they wish. Now, IF, we are comming into line with EU 'Harmonisation' laws.....WHY, can we not have the reintroduction of these classes of smallarm for the Private shooting individual?????........(the SAME as other EU members that are already 'Harmonised'?)

 

ANSWER: HYPOCRACY! It is my & im SURE a LOT of other affectionardos, that the UK Goverment like to play 'Pick & Mix' with the Law. to suit it's OWN ends. And NOT to represent the REAL wishes of a large percentage of the Electorate in general! That I firmly believe is one of the REAL reasons the UK gets penalised & other EU countries DONT!

 

After all, we DO live in a 'Free Country' we are LED to believe?....................

[RattlesnakeBob]

agree all the way with you there Ferretfixer........

I have a mate who has lived just outside of Limoges for nearly 10 years now....he is absolutely fluent in french and works as an electrician in commercial construction and obviously gets to work alongside of and be mates with many 'proper' French fellas.......

.......he said he's always the butt of a lot of jokes off all the blokes he works with due to the UKs seemingly dogged determination to follow every single twist and turn of law that the EEC throws at us........he told me years ago that one chap had said to him (in a good natured manner) something along the lines of this :

" you English just don't get it do you ? WE run the EEC ...and we make up any **** we want to just to get a laugh over watching you stupid English try and jump through all the hoops"

When Mike took him to task over one particular issue, (the then oncoming smoking in bars ban) saying to them "well you lot gotta comply with this as well!" .........

Mike said they absolutely fell about laughing at him....

the fellas reply was something along the lines of

" well yeah... ...we'll say we're complying ....but we won't.........it's as easy as that... "

.........and from what I have seen thats how they have handled it.....they may well have followed 'the law' in perhaps the more cosmopolitan areas such as cities...

............ but out in 'real' France?...not a chance.

PS: ..

...It's the same with dogs in bars and resturants.....a few years ago I was over in Normandy again with my dog and noticed that French folk would take their dog in every bar and cafe etc they wanted to....so... I asked a waiter chap if it was ok for my dog to sit by me in a cafe whilst I ate?..

I got the distinct impression he was more than a bit mystified as to why I should even bother to ask....... with much Gallic gesturing I got the impression that the answer was

" of course you can ...what d'you bother asking for ???? tsk!....theeeeese Engleeese! zey make me wonder zometimes!"

Edited May 14, 2012 by RattlesnakeBob

[ArtistsRifles]

I had a nose through the 2010 specifications - no reference there in absolute terms to heavy machine guns (i.e. the KVPT) so I'm assuming it will be treated in general terms the same as the likes of the DsHK - subject to the Proof Masters opinion??

[ferretfixer]

The term 'Generic' is used to enforce the specs of a Fully welded example now. IE: RPK = Kalasnikov, L86 LSW = SA80 L85, IE it USED to be, IF it had a Bipod it was classed as an LMG. BUT now, the Proofmaster in HIS wisdom (& sadly off his OWN Back!) decided to ban ANY class of LMG that had a similar weapon in the assualt rifle class that HAS to be welded solid!

For example, the AK 47, we accept has to be welded solid. NOW, the RPK equivelant has ALSO to be welded Solid.

Basically, what he is saying is: If the inetrnal working system is identical to an Assualt rifle, then the LMG WILL HAVE To be welded up to the same standard! This is HIS decision, & not an Request from the Home Office. He is in constant touch with them, to the effect of: OOH Sir! Look what IM suggesting. Arent I doing a Good Job sir!.......

 

Of course they think the sun shines out of his Proverbial. BUT, he has done the trade & collecting Fraternity a BIG Dis-service!

 

Birmingham have ALWAYS been more enlightened & more sympathetic towards Deacts. But when the LONDON Proofmaster

found out that HIS way was being enforced in London. But Birmingham were quite HAPPY to keep to the Specs for LMGs. As they were LEGALLY Entitled to! Other dealers & Collectors went to Birmingham to get thier Deacts Certified to the LMG FULL Moving Cation Specs.

Well the London Proofmaster went Ape when he was informed that Birmingham were STILL certing to the CORRECT Specs & London was Losing out on work! (Shot himself in the foot, so to speak!)

 

He Pressurised Birmingham into falling in line with HIS new standards. & there you have it folks. It's now all the same!

 

I Believe HITLER also had Dictatorial attitudes as well!...........

[ferretfixer]

I had a nose through the 2010 specifications - no reference there in absolute terms to heavy machine guns (i.e. the KVPT) so I'm assuming it will be treated in general terms the same as the likes of the DsHK - subject to the Proof Masters opinion??

 

Neil, a HEAVY MG will be allowed to have a moving action. It is LMG GENERIC types he has targeted!

[Marmite!!]

BUT now, the Proofmaster in HIS wisdom (& sadly off his OWN Back!) decided to ban ANY class of LMG that had a similar weapon in the assualt rifle class that HAS to be welded solid!

 

Hows that then?? I thought the Home Office set the deact standards..

 

From:

Firearms Law

Guidance to the Police

De-activation specifications were first

set by the Home Office in 1989. New

specifications came into force on 1 October

1995 but are not retrospective. Therefore, a

gun de-activated prior to 1 October 1995 to

the old specifications remains de-activated for

legal purposes.

2.14 The 1995 specifications encompassed a

substantially greater range of firearms design,

and are generally more stringent than the

preceding (1989) standards.

2.15 The revised specifications enable

alternative standards to be agreed on a caseby-

case basis for the class of weapons listed

in the Home Office publication “Firearms

Law – Specifications for the Adaptation of

Shot Gun Magazines and the De-activation of

Firearms”. Any alternative standards will be

equally stringent but will allow the weapons

to retain some of the essential features

required by collectors. The new specifications

allow for agreement on alternative standards

to be an on-going process.

[RattlesnakeBob]

Probably wandering well 'off topic' and I apologise for that but..

..... do the Police/Home Office etc ever release any figures available to accurately say how many 'reactivated' weapons are actually used in crime lately?.......

....Only asking because it's pretty obvious that it's relatively simple to smuggle massive quantities of Heroin/Cocaine etc into this country...so it can't be that hard to smuggle guns in either can it?....and there is an absolutely massive quantity of weapons available on the continent especially the former Eastern Bloc so .... if I was of a 'criminal mind'.... wouldn't it be a darn sight easier to buy a 'proper' fully functioning modern weapon than messing about trying to get a dodgy 50 or 60 year old Browning or something similar to fire again????

.....so is 're-activation' of collector type weapons a big problem here even???

[Panzer nut]

The term 'Generic' is used to enforce the specs of a Fully welded example now. IE: RPK = Kalasnikov, L86 LSW = SA80 L85, IE it USED to be, IF it had a Bipod it was classed as an LMG. BUT now, the Proofmaster in HIS wisdom (& sadly off his OWN Back!) decided to ban ANY class of LMG that had a similar weapon in the assualt rifle class that HAS to be welded solid!

For example, the AK 47, we accept has to be welded solid. NOW, the RPK equivelant has ALSO to be welded Solid.

Basically, what he is saying is: If the inetrnal working system is identical to an Assualt rifle, then the LMG WILL HAVE To be welded up to the same standard! This is HIS decision, & not an Request from the Home Office. He is in constant touch with them, to the effect of: OOH Sir! Look what IM suggesting. Arent I doing a Good Job sir!.......

 

Of course they think the sun shines out of his Proverbial. BUT, he has done the trade & collecting Fraternity a BIG Dis-service!

 

Birmingham have ALWAYS been more enlightened & more sympathetic towards Deacts. But when the LONDON Proofmaster

found out that HIS way was being enforced in London. But Birmingham were quite HAPPY to keep to the Specs for LMGs. As they were LEGALLY Entitled to! Other dealers & Collectors went to Birmingham to get thier Deacts Certified to the LMG FULL Moving Cation Specs.

Well the London Proofmaster went Ape when he was informed that Birmingham were STILL certing to the CORRECT Specs & London was Losing out on work! (Shot himself in the foot, so to speak!)

 

He Pressurised Birmingham into falling in line with HIS new standards. & there you have it folks. It's now all the same!

 

I Believe HITLER also had Dictatorial attitudes as well!...........

 

I wonder if this is what my friend was referring to?