Pattern 68 Smock Liners And Hoods

[Rasputin]

Two questions;

 

Does the button on hood size the the 68 Smock have to match the size of the Smock? I see some of these for sale, but they are size 1.

 

What do the button in liners look like, and what are the sizes for these?

[Eaglehurst]

Two questions;

 

Does the button on hood size the the 68 Smock have to match the size of the Smock? I see some of these for sale, but they are size 1.

 

What do the button in liners look like, and what are the sizes for these?

 

There are two sizes of hood - size 1 for smock sizes 1,2,4,5 & 7 and size 2 for 3,6,8 and 9. Size 1 are pretty common - size 2 much less so.

 

In terms of liners - old sizing runs from 1-5, new metric sizing is in the 180 (height) and 104 (chest) which is easier to work out. Old sizing 1 is c.170/96 metric to size 5 which is 190/120. Btw - these liners are not button in - I think on the experimental 68 pattern smocks this was trialed however production jackets ran with liners that are essentially separate.

 

Worked example: Size 9 smock needs size 2 hood and size 5 liner (190/120)

 

They look like this:

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2012 by Eaglehurst

[Rasputin]

Thanks! For some reason, I thought a vest type of deal was used for these smocks. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a good one to get for the collection. I used to have a 68 pattern in size 7 that I got off a buddy in Germany in the mid eightys, but I sold it long ago.

[Eaglehurst]

Thanks! For some reason, I thought a vest type of deal was used for these smocks. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a good one to get for the collection. I used to have a 68 pattern in size 7 that I got off a buddy in Germany in the mid eightys, but I sold it long ago.

 

Yes - vest issued also! Thinking about it now it may well have been the vests for the temperate 68 pattern and the full sleeve liner for the Arctic Smock. I think the vests work on the same (old) sizing as the full sleeve liners.

[Panzer nut]

There was also a sleeve-less liner

see our web site: http://www.forces80.com/uniformv2p2.htm

 

I have worn the size 1 hood with my size 8 jacket and it seemed to fit okay. The size 2's are indeed a rarity.

Jon

[wdbikemad]

As far as I know, sleeveless vests for the '68 pattern smocks, long sleeved button front for the arctic and SAS smocks (although we always wore the Helly Hansen Field Pile jacket ) and the long sleeved with velcro f6ornt closing was for the parkas.

 

Steve ??

 

Dave

 

Yep, as stated Dave.....sleeveless liner part of the 68 ensemble (introduced around 71-72) and obsolete by 1986.....the "84" pattern smock was specified to be worn with the buttoned, sleeved liner as used with the arctic windproof smock.....(and you needed it, as the former was bereft of lining....)

 

Size 2 hoods are not as common as 1s, but if you find a large pile of 'em there are invariably a few 2s mixed in.....grab 'em whilst you can..........

Edited January 17, 2012 by wdbikemad

[Rasputin]

Thanks Gents! I'll be keeping an eye out for both those items now, but its going to hard since I live in the States.

[43rdrecce]

Whilst you are all discussing liners, can anyone tell me about this liner? It is one of the ones with the groovy little corduroy collar and two patch pockets on the lower front. Press stud closure with 5 studs and knitted cuffs. Why the differences?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

[Panzer nut]

Oooooo interesting, but Pass??????

 

Jon

[wdbikemad]

Whilst you are all discussing liners, can anyone tell me about this liner? It is one of the ones with the groovy little corduroy collar and two patch pockets on the lower front. Press stud closure with 5 studs and knitted cuffs. Why the differences?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55842[/ATTACH]

 

Paul, what does the designation at the top of the label say ? I can't see it in the photo.....

[43rdrecce]

Attached a couple of photos of this odd pattern liner. They can be seen in some Falkland Island photos.

All my FI kit was worn down south as all of it was bought from returning vets. That was the criteria for collecting it. I provided a lot of kit for the FI exhibition at the IWM in 1992 (most of it in fact) At the end of the exhibition I decided I didn't want it back, and they bought a lot of it from me.

 

The remaining kit was boxed and remains untouched since then. Not a lot of DPM now (sadly it didn't have a great deal of sgnificance then) though I do have lot of Argentine camo.

I bought most of it for beer money as the boys were selling after the novelty wore off!!

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited January 20, 2012 by 43rdrecce
spelling- don't use an iphone!

[Rasputin]

Would that liner have been worn with the Artic Pattern Smock, or the regular pattern 68 smock?

[wdbikemad]

Hmmm.....I have to say that I'm not entirely convinced that this is an issue garment...!!! This is despite the label, although I may well be wrong......:-)

 

Unfortunately, I do not have a full NATO stock number listing, so can't look up this particular garment going by the label....

 

I note that the NSN on the label begins with "22F".....whereas in the '86 QM catalogue both the 68 pattern sleeveless liner and the arctic windproof liner with buttons and sleeves come under category "CG" (combat clothing), although the latter may have originally come under "CM" (specialist and cold-weather stuff)........

 

"22F" also seems to me to be a RAF-type NSN.......flying clothing coming under "22C".........so, if an original issue garment was this a RAF-issue item...? There does not appear to be any "pattern designation" visible above the label's NSN, and the label itself looks to be "raw" or "cut" just above the NSN with loose stitching, possibly suggesting latter application...?

 

This garment resembles a civilian horse-riding style coat popular during the late-1970s and early 1980s, complete with corduroy collar and side vents for when on horseback.....I wonder if the RAF "purloined" a commercial garment for limited official issue, possibly in the Falklands, around the early 80s.....?

 

Interesting........:-D

[Panzer nut]

These Liners, that suposed to keep you warm, well.............They don't work, now had first hand experience over weekend at camp Okehampton marching up and down Rowtor in the darn wind

Jon

[43rdrecce]

Hmmm.....I have to say that I'm not entirely convinced that this is an issue garment...!!! This is despite the label, although I may well be wrong......:-)

 

Unfortunately, I do not have a full NATO stock number listing, so can't look up this particular garment going by the label....

 

 

Hmmm.....so the implication is that the item is wrong then???

I find the idea of that a bit laughable mate. This was a scabby £5 quid liner in 1983, by my reckoning it's a scabby £20 liner now, so I'm not sure what your point is. When I acquired this gear (all of it pre 1985ish, I didn't bother after that) there was absolutely no interest whatsoever in DPM. Nobody wanted it other than to wear it on a building site or fishing.

The idea that anyone would fake something like that in the 1980s is a bit of a non starter!

As I said in a previous post, I bought a lot of stuff from returning FI vets. My brother had been down there and many of his mates sold and gave me stuff. I can't recall paying more than £15-20 for any of it and most of it was buckshee.

 

At that time I was a serious WW1 collector (and still have most of it) and found the 'war souvenir' stuff that was turning up in junk shops, which we still had in those fantastic pre ebay days, and collectors markets very interesting and considerably cheaper than WW1 kit. At the start of the 80s WW1 kit started to shoot up in price and the FI stuff was a cheap and then easy to find alternative distraction.

I started to buy and scrounge mainly Argie kit but then complimentary items of British kit. The proviso was that it had either been worn down south, or at the very least issued for use down there.

I picked up some pretty amazing and historic items in the process. I was very friendly with a senior researcher at the Imperial War Museum, a fellow WW1 collector, who knew that I had amassed a large collection of FI related kit and when the museum put together its 10th anniversary exhibition in 1992, I was asked to lend a lot of items for display.

As an aside the IWM had made absolutely no effort in obtaining good original items from the conflict other than odd things like Prince Andrew's gloves or Mrs T's besk blotter etc etc, something they repeated to a slightly lesser extent after Gulf 1. They were desperate to obtain representative items for the display and I worked with the designers to set up the exhibits. The IWM specially commissioned some manequins for the Argie kit and I kept those at the end of the exhibition.

 

When it was all over, I decided that I didn't want the bulk of the kit back and flogged it to them for around 4K, which gives you an idea of the amount of material involved. It included bullet holed items from GH, a data panel from a cluster bomb dropped in the first air raid on Stanley and other such historical gems. I retained some of the Argie SF and conscript kit. I also still have some 'celebrity' kit from people such as Alfredo Astiz and Lt. Col Piaggi, Santa Fe officers etc and some very Good Argie SF stuff. I also have some Brit celebrity kit in addition.

 

Anyway, that is a long digression, back to the liner. This has only recently been taken from a box last opened in 1992, the only time it had actually left the box since then. So I can assure you it is a genuine item. It is not for sale. I posted it for interests sake and to find out a little more about it. I have seen these liners in more than one photograph from the conflict and I have feeling that there is a photo of somebody wearing one in one of those 'Observer Big Bumper Fun Annual of the Falklands' type books published in 1982. Can't remember the unit but almost certain it was not RAF. There were some pretty strange things happening then. Blacks and Millets supplied emergency kit for 5 Brigade in the form of bergans in blue and bottle green I seem to recall, imagine trying to identify one of those babies now?? Unless you are given one by the vet that wore it how would you ever know. They are genuine 'issue' items nonetheless.

I don't think a partial NSN list would help there either.

 

Unless someone finds a list that identifies 22F etc as Pants, Lounging, Latex, RAF Officers, then I think we have to accept that this is a pukka item. I would also point out that it is far grottier in real life than in the iphone pics I provided. The label is quite grubby and yellow, the flash has made it look cleaner than it is. It has not been fiddled with in any way, why the hell would anyone bother? Personally I wouldn't even take the lid off the Singer sewing machine for the amount this would make, even downhill with a strong tailwind and Brigadier Julian Thompson wearing it!

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Eaglehurst]

I retained some of the Argie SF and conscript kit. I also still have some 'celebrity' kit from people such as Alfredo Astiz and Lt. Col Piaggi, Santa Fe officers etc and some very Good Argie SF stuff.

 

Paul - would love to see some photos of these items if you get a chance....

[wdbikemad]

Hmmm.....so the implication is that the item is wrong then???

I find the idea of that a bit laughable mate. This was a scabby £5 quid liner in 1983, by my reckoning it's a scabby £20 liner now, so I'm not sure what your point is. When I acquired this gear (all of it pre 1985ish, I didn't bother after that) there was absolutely no interest whatsoever in DPM. Nobody wanted it other than to wear it on a building site or fishing.

The idea that anyone would fake something like that in the 1980s is a bit of a non starter!

As I said in a previous post, I bought a lot of stuff from returning FI vets. My brother had been down there and many of his mates sold and gave me stuff. I can't recall paying more than £15-20 for any of it and most of it was buckshee.

 

At that time I was a serious WW1 collector (and still have most of it) and found the 'war souvenir' stuff that was turning up in junk shops, which we still had in those fantastic pre ebay days, and collectors markets very interesting and considerably cheaper than WW1 kit. At the start of the 80s WW1 kit started to shoot up in price and the FI stuff was a cheap and then easy to find alternative distraction.

I started to buy and scrounge mainly Argie kit but then complimentary items of British kit. The proviso was that it had either been worn down south, or at the very least issued for use down there.

I picked up some pretty amazing and historic items in the process. I was very friendly with a senior researcher at the Imperial War Museum, a fellow WW1 collector, who knew that I had amassed a large collection of FI related kit and when the museum put together its 10th anniversary exhibition in 1992, I was asked to lend a lot of items for display.

As an aside the IWM had made absolutely no effort in obtaining good original items from the conflict other than odd things like Prince Andrew's gloves or Mrs T's besk blotter etc etc, something they repeated to a slightly lesser extent after Gulf 1. They were desperate to obtain representative items for the display and I worked with the designers to set up the exhibits. The IWM specially commissioned some manequins for the Argie kit and I kept those at the end of the exhibition.

 

When it was all over, I decided that I didn't want the bulk of the kit back and flogged it to them for around 4K, which gives you an idea of the amount of material involved. It included bullet holed items from GH, a data panel from a cluster bomb dropped in the first air raid on Stanley and other such historical gems. I retained some of the Argie SF and conscript kit. I also still have some 'celebrity' kit from people such as Alfredo Astiz and Lt. Col Piaggi, Santa Fe officers etc and some very Good Argie SF stuff. I also have some Brit celebrity kit in addition.

 

Anyway, that is a long digression, back to the liner. This has only recently been taken from a box last opened in 1992, the only time it had actually left the box since then. So I can assure you it is a genuine item. It is not for sale. I posted it for interests sake and to find out a little more about it. I have seen these liners in more than one photograph from the conflict and I have feeling that there is a photo of somebody wearing one in one of those 'Observer Big Bumper Fun Annual of the Falklands' type books published in 1982. Can't remember the unit but almost certain it was not RAF. There were some pretty strange things happening then. Blacks and Millets supplied emergency kit for 5 Brigade in the form of bergans in blue and bottle green I seem to recall, imagine trying to identify one of those babies now?? Unless you are given one by the vet that wore it how would you ever know. They are genuine 'issue' items nonetheless.

I don't think a partial NSN list would help there either.

 

Unless someone finds a list that identifies 22F etc as Pants, Lounging, Latex, RAF Officers, then I think we have to accept that this is a pukka item. I would also point out that it is far grottier in real life than in the iphone pics I provided. The label is quite grubby and yellow, the flash has made it look cleaner than it is. It has not been fiddled with in any way, why the hell would anyone bother? Personally I wouldn't even take the lid off the Singer sewing machine for the amount this would make, even downhill with a strong tailwind and Brigadier Julian Thompson wearing it!

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Hey Paul.....a bit defensive in the reply ! I'm only offering an unqualified opinion, and I did state "I could be wrong" !! Plus, I fully concur with your comments.....You are entirely correct in remarking that at the period in question a great deal of kit was obtained from non-standard sources....I can think of Berghaus, Karrimor, etc, all entering the supply system one way or the other....perhaps by stating "not issue" I should have added the wording "standard".....this does not mean that the item wasn't official issue, simply not the standard, or common issue......

 

As mentioned, the only way to correctly identify an item is by the NSN (which this item carries) and then refer that to the published NSN lists that give a date, description and other references......as mentioned, I don't have a RAF "22F" listing, only a "22C" (flying clothing) and a "CG" list that covers Army combat clothing ....so I am offering my own opinion based on this, nothing else.....after all, wasn't your original posting intended to gather comment, opinion and feedback...? Perhaps I have I misunderstood something...?

 

As an aside, as an ex-provo, I can recall two jobs in the early 80s involving individuals charged for wearing non-standard kit who claimed it was "issue"......turned out that they had sewn-in official labels from other garments to pass a cursory kit inspection........! "Why bother" was the only thought in my mind........:undecided:

Edited January 23, 2012 by wdbikemad

[wdbikemad]

I think the supply situation around the time of the Falklands conflict was pretty dire......and we soon ran short of suitable cold-weather kit, hence possible out-sourcing from commercial suppliers.......James Smith and Co were MoD contractors around this time, but the firm went bust during 1987 (I still have the article somewhere).....

 

In real terms, the conflict was too short for many commercially-sourced items to arrive in-theatre other than true emergency-aquisitions that would likely have been taken from shop and manufacturers stocks directly without any official labeling applied, although former officially-sourced commercial items would likely have arrived in-theatre for use in the post-war period.....after all, stocks of suitable cold-weather kit were seriously low for some time after the war ended......

 

A mate of mine in the RAF was sent to RAF Stanley during early 83 and was issued with the short green Canadian extreme-cold weather parka then used by the RAF for issue in areas such as Goose Bay (Canada), etc........DPM parka's were unavailable, as were arctic windproofs and liners.........

[Rasputin]

I've located a Pattern 68 Smock in size 9, and I think I might have found a hood for it, but want to check first. The DPM looks to be of the older type, and although I don't have a picture of the label, it reads:

 

Hood, Cold Weather (Combat DPM) CG 8415-99-132-2049 Size 2 Remploy Limited CT48/448

 

Here it is:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

Would this be the correct hood for my smock?

[Eaglehurst]

I've located a Pattern 68 Smock in size 9, and I think I might have found a hood for it, but want to check first. The DPM looks to be of the older type, and although I don't have a picture of the label, it reads:

 

Hood, Cold Weather (Combat DPM) CG 8415-99-132-2049 Size 2 Remploy Limited CT48/448

 

Here it is:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

Would this be the correct hood for my smock?

 

Yes - correct type and size for a 68patt size 9 smock...

[Rasputin]

Thank you! I thought it was, but its always better to check.

[wdbikemad]

That DPM colour/pattern is the same as my large 63 pattern DPM windproof.....so an early 70s variant....

[Rasputin]

That DPM colour/pattern is the same as my large 63 pattern DPM windproof.....so an early 70s variant....

 

Hopefully it will match my smock. From what I can tell, its a mid 70s model.

[wdbikemad]

It's worth mentioning that DPM garments were never issued to make a perfect colour-matched combination......indeed, if you managed this it was either by sheer luck, you were matey with the storeman, you were the storeman or you were just too fashion-conscious !!!

 

Personally, I always had to accept the garment thrown at me from the top of the stack on the shelves, after the lazy b%$£@£d had put his paper or girlie mag down.....

[Rasputin]

It's worth mentioning that DPM garments were never issued to make a perfect colour-matched combination......indeed, if you managed this it was either by sheer luck, you were matey with the storeman, you were the storeman or you were just too fashion-conscious !!!

 

Personally, I always had to accept the garment thrown at me from the top of the stack on the shelves, after the lazy b%$£@£d had put his paper or girlie mag down.....

 

 

I was referring to the condition of wear. My smock is NOS, I'm hoping the hood is in good condition as far as wear. My basic concern was is it correct period.

Now to find a vest liner...