SMLE WW1 vintage

[Graham]

Hi

Seasons greetings to you all. Advice please about a suitable seller of a deactivated WW1 vintage SMLE MkIII (?) I am not an expert in this area but I have been visiting and walking over the battlefields around Mametz Wood/Flers and think it is time I owned an example of the typical infantry weapon used in 1916 onwards. Thanks you in anticipation. Graham, Lancashire

[Enfield1940]

The post-1916 model is the MkIII* - where the long range 'volley' sights and the magazine cut-off have been deleted to speed production. (And various other smaller details) Do LOTS of reading on the subject before you part with your hard earned. A lot of the 'WWI dated' SMLE's on the deact market have been recently assembled from parts and merely happen to have a WWI dated receiver. Having said that, the majority of WWI SMLE's will have been rebuilt to some extent after the war.

 

I'm afraid it's not as simple as pointing you at a specific dealer or two. You need to read up and then look at lots of guns to find ones that are relatively original.

[Graham]

Thank you for the advice - I will do as you say and research more about SMLEs - I hope to go to Militaria 2012 at the end of next month - perhaps there will be suitable dealers there? Thanks again, Graham

[Tony B]

Most important learn your proof marks! Especially the de ac mark. That is what makes the de ac legal, NOT the bit of papaer. Check the state of the metal and woodwork finish, any obvious diffrences in blueing point to a bitza. The SMLE Rifle Number 1 Mark 111 or mark111* have and still are being copied . Bolt and reciver should match numbers. Also check sights, some are marked in meters, obviously not Comonwealth. http://www.leeenfieldrifleassociation.org.uk/page.php?domain_name=leeenfieldrifleassociation.org.uk&viewpage=histor

[Enfield1940]

You could do a lot worse than invest in a copy of 'The Lee-Enfield' by Ian Skennerton - it's pretty much the bible on Lee-Enfields.

 

http://www.skennerton.com/rifles.html

 

You might also want to use Militaria 2012 as an opportunity to see in the flesh what is typically for sale (good and bad...) before looking to purchase at Beltring in July where the biggest quantity of dealers are likely to be.

[Chris Hall]

This one is £190 its 1918 dated so late WW1 but looks honest enough. Unfortunatly its welded solid but this isn't the norm.

 

http://www.ukmsales.com/viewphoto.php?shoph=517648&phqu=8

 

Its had a replacement top for end wood and the spring plate on the safety looks like a later replacement too.

 

This seller also had some Long lees cut down and some have SMLE wood work. These (Seen on other sites too, and sold as 'Genuine') are of recent South African origin and many were welded shut before being exported from SA. Avoid these like the plague!

 

Example:

 

http://www.dandbmilitaria.com/smle-rifle---------sn-915-7074-p.asp

 

Not worth the money and completly wrong.

 

 

 

The 3 on this page are interwar BSA commercial manufacture but identical to WW1 examples (With out the markings).

 

http://dwsuk.org/shop/catalog/browse?shop_param=shop_overview_pager%3D2%26cid%3D6%26

 

This one looks Ok, Enfield made 1917, has some holes in the wood from what could have been a target sight

 

http://www.deactivated-military-weapons.co.uk/image-files/R452_B_SMLE.jpg

 

A 1918 BSA Mk3*

 

http://www.jcmilitaria.com/display_image.asp?ID=7531 Expensive but looks good

[Graham]

Thank you all for your very helpful advice. Perhaps being a bit impatient instead of waiting for Militaria 2012, I bought one on line. Thank you Chris Hall, I followed your suggestions and bought from MDWsupplies' a 1917 SMLE and I am very pleased with it. All the numbers seem to match and it has that well worn and used feel of a rifle which is over 70 years old. I am looking forward to getting to know the rifle, typical of all those SMLEs used during WW1 and later. Thanks again, Graham

[Tony B]

And Now you need..... Bayonet Enfeild 16" sword. :cool2: The Remington type have a higher ring and two vertical groves in the hilt. So be carful you get the right one.

[Graham]

Thanks Tony, I was wanting one but was not sure which was the correct one - the details you gave me are in my note book, together with my wish list, an oil bottle, pull through, stripper clip and slings. I am on a steep learning curve but very enjoyable. Thanks again. Graham

[Tony B]

Look for a low set barrel ring and smooth hilt. Scabbard is black leather with metal tip. Price for a decent one about £80.

[Chris Hall]

Should also say 1907 which is the model number, Pattern 1907 or 07.

[Tony B]

Pattern number had gone out of the mind. (like so many things) Based on the Japanese Askari bayonet, the SMLE was shorter than most of the opposition's rifle, therefore the bayonet had to be longer. If you find one with an origonal curved Quillion on the bottom you have hit the jackpot. Those that had them they were removed and from then on they were not manufactured with them.

[Chris Hall]

Be aware though that hooked Quillon 1907s have been reproduced by a number of parties, some better than others but a genuine one will be dated 1913 or before and will have a aged look, even the very good examples have some age to them. (Obviously some repros have been aged to but still dont quite look right).

[Graham]

Look for a low set barrel ring and smooth hilt. Scabbard is black leather with metal tip. Price for a decent one about £80.

 

Coincidently I have just bought one like this for £80 from MDW - a good chap to talk to. I suspect that all this will lead me to wanting equivalent rifles used by the Germans, French, Italians, Russians, Austrians..... what have I started!!!

[Tony B]

Coincidently I have just bought one like this for £80 from MDW - a good chap to talk to. I suspect that all this will lead me to wanting equivalent rifles used by the Germans, French, Italians, Russians, Austrians..... what have I started!!!

Mauser kar 1895 and 1898. 95 was issued to the territorial regiments. The French Lebel, expensive I'm told. Japaneses 6.5 mm 38th year . Austria the 8 mm Manlicher 1895. Italy the Mannlicher Carcano 6.5 mm The TS (Truppo Speciale) there are two versions Infantary and Cavalary carbine.Rusian 3 line (This being the Russian measurment of clibre at the time) Rifle M1891 and the M1910 version.

Then comes side arms, ooooh fascinating but expensive, then lAutomatic weapons, sell wife house and kids! :-D

 

Incidentally anyone else noticed that the Mauser's in the new Sherlock Holmes film are wrong for the date? the Panel side used by Watson was first introduced in 1896 the flat side Schneelfuere used by Holmes was manufactured till the 1920's!!!! And it looks more like an astrs 902 than a Mauser.

[ferrettkitt]

I thought that I would add a few pictures off my SMLE

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55775[/ATTACH]

 

The worst bit was trying to obtain a good quality picture of the rifle not easy

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55776[/ATTACH]

 

Bayonet

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55777[/ATTACH]

[Graham]

Thanks for the pictures - I like the pink slippers

May be a stupid question but what are :-

"1907 bayonet Scabbard Laces One 4 ounce box of 1907 long scabbard laces, original military surplus. Part number BB1213" currently on sale on eBay?

[Chris Hall]

They are a wire staple used to attach the top and bottom steel parts of the scabbard to the leather sheath. There isnt really much of a market for them.

[Graham]

Thanks for that. The staple seem a bit crude as a fixing compared to the excellent work on the scabbard especially the leather stitching. I do like this forum a lot of helpful and knowledgeable contributors. Next I want a bayonet frog and sling for the rifle. Will try at the 'do' in Stockport this weekend. Have you seen the "WW1 20 Round Magazine Pouch for SMLE" on eBay, starting price £200!

[Graham]

Following on from my getting a SMLE, I would like a sling. Chatting to a helpful stall holder at last weekends Stockport Military Fair I said there seemed to be a shortage of WW1 slings, my thinking being that it was odd there seems today to be more rifles that slings? He replied that when the slings get damaged and that when the rifle was returned to the armourers for re issue usually it needed a new sling since the new 'owner' would not want a sling covered in blood or worse or just dirty, therefore a lot of slings could have been used for each rifle. Interesting thought. Anyway I would still like a webbing one if any one can point me in the right direction to buy one. WW1 leather slings seem very expensive.

[Chris Hall]

Some WW1 slings were webb and I'd imagine that by the end of the war, all slings would be webb. They remain pretty much unchanged upto the late 50s when the webb fabric gave way to a man made fibre of the same design. Have a look on ebay for enfield sling

[Enfield1940]

The 1914 Pattern leather slings were a temporary expedient at the beginning of WWI to increase production. The webbing sling was first issued in 1901 and was issued before, during and after WWI. Lots of info here:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/no_pattern/weapons/slings.html

 

Original WWI dated webbing slings are scarce and expensive. Unlike the WWII version they are usually marked on the brass ends rather than on the webbing. Any khaki sling without prominent post-WWI markings would be a perfectly good stand in.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Enfield1940

[Tony B]

Some WW1 slings were webb and I'd imagine that by the end of the war, all slings would be webb. They remain pretty much unchanged upto the late 50s when the webb fabric gave way to a man made fibre of the same design. Have a look on ebay for enfield sling

 

Britsh Army webbing at the time of the Great War was a highly classified piece of kit! The original design and weave was created by Albert Letuern. It started development in about 1906. The problem was it could only be woven on the looms of Mills Equipment Company. The result was during 1915/16 the army reverted to leather.

 

It was looked upon as the mark of 'Conscript', so was often ditched as soon as a webbing kit could be obtained.

[Chris Hall]

Very intresting Tony, I never knew it was classified.

[Tony B]

Daft as it might seem, the design and construction of the looms used to make it were considered secret. Letuern recived his first patent on the machinery in 1911. Think of how many things now have webbing straps, belts etc. It was at the time a licence to print money. It also gave the Tommy a marked advantage over the opposition, it was hard wearing durable, not prone to splitting cracking like leather, wasn't sensitive to temprature and was comfortable to wear. The design also allowed better weight distribution so the soldier could carry more , march futher and be in better condition to fight. It also introduced flexibility, you could mix and match standard size pouches to fit mission parameters. All now taken for granted in PLCE equipment. I would say that the Britsh soldier just prior to 1914 was the best equipped they have ever been.

 

A modern style uniform, moddeled on Gentelemens sporting attire, gave fredom of movement, wool still has a lot going for it over artifical fabrics, the best bolt action battle rifle ever produced, and highly trained soldier's to use it. And of course a world beating set of equipment.