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Alaskan

Saracen Upgrade Progress

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Hello all...

 

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughs on upgrading a Saracen with a modern power plant and transmission. I would really love to have a modern, more powerful and more reliable engine and transmission to consistently move the vehicle along at about 45 mph even up moderate hills. As it is now, my uparmored beast struggles to go up moderate hills at speeds of more than 10mph or so.

 

I figured that I have two possible options:

 

1. Remove the engine, transfer case, gearbox, etc. replace with a new engine, transmission and mate to the rear bevel boxes or mate to a new rear axel. In essence making this a two wheel drive vehicle, or

2. Mount to a commercial truck frame with attached engine, trans and axels.

 

Any ideas?

Thanks

Rodney

 

 

tank.jpg

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Hi Rodney,

 

I had such thoughts myself a while ago. I waa thinking along the lines of changing only the powerplant with a small block V8 or a diesel. it remained a pipedream, however.

 

On a different note, was the RPG mesh, Kremlin mesh or such, as was used on sarry's in Ireland any good? More info on this?

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I met with one of our best local big-rig mechanics yesterday. He has been through my Saracen and is recommending mounting the hull to a International 4600 or 4700 platform with a DT466 Engine. We found a possible platform for $9k, and are working out the details now.

 

On the plus side this will upgrade the vehicle with an automatic trans, allow normal highway speeds and improve reliability considerably.

 

In the end I will probably spend $20k on this project, but I would have paid twice that the last time I broke down on the side of the road due to a faulty $2 dollar condenser...lol Now I just have to find a gift for my wife to bribe her.

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Hi Rodney,

 

I had such thoughts myself a while ago. I waa thinking along the lines of changing only the powerplant with a small block V8 or a diesel. it remained a pipedream, however.

 

On a different note, was the RPG mesh, Kremlin mesh or such, as was used on sarry's in Ireland any good? More info on this?

 

 

Hi Montie, I don't really know about the RPG mesh.

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Hello all...

 

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughs on upgrading a Saracen with a modern power plant and transmission. I would really love to have a modern, more powerful and more reliable engine and transmission to consistently move the vehicle along at about 45 mph even up moderate hills. As it is now, my uparmored beast struggles to go up moderate hills at speeds of more than 10mph or so.

 

I figured that I have two possible options:

 

1. Remove the engine, transfer case, gearbox, etc. replace with a new engine, transmission and mate to the rear bevel boxes or mate to a new rear axel. In essence making this a two wheel drive vehicle, or

2. Mount to a commercial truck frame with attached engine, trans and axels.

 

Any ideas?

Thanks

Rodney

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51541[/ATTACH]

...... My own uparmoured Saracen is as far as I know, totally standard, but still remains suprisingly spritely, for such a large vehicle. It has been clocked at 60mph, on a long motorway journey, and manages all but the steepest of hills with ease,... is your gearbox working properly?... an easy upgrade is to fit an Alvis Stalwart engine, a B81,(6500cc) instead of the saracens' standard B80 (5760cc).... and a whole lot cheaper to do, aswell!:-D

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You could get rid of all the armour/steel, just keep running gear and build a carbon body. That should give it some speed that would surprise a few other road users LOL

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Right up my street,, 05 FF 50

Powerd by a jaguar 4.2 and auto box,

The engine is more powerfull being auto instant gear change and great speed. My saracen had a worn out 4th gear so i stripped the box just to leave the transfer( sold the b80 to John Pearson )i fitted a jaguar engine and box a small prop to join them both and it worked well. The only problem i had i used the car pas pump to power the steering and brakes.. it was not up for the job,, In the past i have also fitted a b series cummins to a stalwart STAL108.

I an now fitting a M.A.N 150 6cylinder diesel engine into my saladin,, in the next few weeks,, pop over and have a look if your intrested,,,

17092011481.jpg

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Right up my street,, 05 FF 50

Powerd by a jaguar 4.2 and auto box,

The engine is more powerfull being auto instant gear change and great speed. My saracen had a worn out 4th gear so i stripped the box just to leave the transfer( sold the b80 to John Pearson )i fitted a jaguar engine and box a small prop to join them both and it worked well. The only problem i had i used the car pas pump to power the steering and brakes.. it was not up for the job,, In the past i have also fitted a b series cummins to a stalwart STAL108.

I an now fitting a M.A.N 150 6cylinder diesel engine into my saladin,, in the next few weeks,, pop over and have a look if your intrested,,,

 

Thanks will do. I have purchased the new platform for my Saracen. A DT466 Diesel with Allison 5 sp. I will post pictures when work starts in a few weeks.

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Right up my street,, 05 FF 50

Powerd by a jaguar 4.2 and auto box,

The engine is more powerfull being auto instant gear change and great speed. My saracen had a worn out 4th gear so i stripped the box just to leave the transfer( sold the b80 to John Pearson )i fitted a jaguar engine and box a small prop to join them both and it worked well. The only problem i had i used the car pas pump to power the steering and brakes.. it was not up for the job,, In the past i have also fitted a b series cummins to a stalwart STAL108.

I an now fitting a M.A.N 150 6cylinder diesel engine into my saladin,, in the next few weeks,, pop over and have a look if your intrested,,,

 

This is really bare bones! Actually ugly when stripped down like this. What are the three boxes/ latches for on the back?

 

Interesting conversions you have done. How was the clearance for the sump and how do you drain the oil when servicing?

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The upgrade work has started on my Saracen and is moving along fast. The Saracen will be placed on a International 4700 Frame, with a DT466 diesel and auto trans. The engine and transmission are the same as used in some US LAVs that weight quite a bit more so we will have lots of power. We will install a drop axel on the vehicle to keep the same look.

 

Visually it will look the identical except it will ride a few inches higher. I will post more pictures on a regular basis.

 

Rodney

 

 

SARACENPROJECT1.jpg

Ketchikan-20111019-00108.jpg

Ketchikan-20111011-00092.jpg

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so if i get this right it wont be a saracen anymore just a saracen body shell sitting on another chassis?

 

if I have this correct then doesnt that defeat the whole idea of owning a military vehicle?

 

could you not find a better sized engine and fit that if its more power your after?

 

sorry this is just IMO... but for the life of me cant see why you would want to do such a thing to a very pukka vehicle..

 

but hey each to there own...

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For sure it would have been nice to keep the vehicle stock. However, I much rather have a hybrid vehicle that looks like a Saracen, but drives like a truck, than a stock Saracen that sit in my garage because it is not practical to drive.

 

I have spent six months trying to work out the bugs, but have broke down on the side of the road once, and had multiple leaks. My last leak fix cost a thousand dollars and lasted for 15 miles. This vehicle is a love affair for sure and our goal is to make it very hard to visually notice the difference when completed.

 

Just think, no more fluid flywheel... hydraulics...etc, easy to find tires, and parts I can obtain locally.

 

Besides, didn't a South African company upgrade many of these vehicles to diesels in the past?

 

so if i get this right it wont be a saracen anymore just a saracen body shell sitting on another chassis?

 

if I have this correct then doesnt that defeat the whole idea of owning a military vehicle?

 

could you not find a better sized engine and fit that if its more power your after?

 

sorry this is just IMO... but for the life of me cant see why you would want to do such a thing to a very pukka vehicle..

 

but hey each to there own...

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For sure it would have been nice to keep the vehicle stock. However, I much rather have a hybrid vehicle that looks like a Saracen, but drives like a truck, than a stock Saracen that sit in my garage because it is not practical to drive. I have spent six months trying to work out the bugs, but have broke down on the side of the road once, and had multiple leaks. My last leak fix cost a thousand dollars and lasted for 15 miles. This vehicle is a love affair for sure and our goal is to make it very hard to visually notice the difference when completed.Just think, no more fluid flywheel... hydraulics...etc, easy to find tires, and parts I can obtain locally.Besides, didn't a South African company upgrade many of these vehicles to diesels in the past?
Hi Alaskan, I have seen a lot of South African Saracens (and taken a lot of pictures, posted on this forum) and although a lot of their engine compartments weren't accesible, I have yet to come across a diesel version. Also, all are Saracen 88's and I have yet to come across a South African Saracen that is not an 88! Liking or not liking what you are doing, it sure takes a lot of guts and funds! Do you intend to selloff eventually? Edited by montie

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Nice bit of work , I can see you want to use it and are doing it so it makes it useable. I WENT A DIFFERENT ROUTE.

I used a jaguar 4.2 petrol and auto box. i used the saracen transfer box so i kept the 6x6. I am doing a saladin at present with a M.A.N diesel engine but keeping the preselecter box. I dont think much of the old B series engine and they never seem to run 100% a diesel is a better option if you realy want to use it.

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Nice bit of work , I can see you want to use it and are doing it so it makes it useable. I WENT A DIFFERENT ROUTE.

I used a jaguar 4.2 petrol and auto box. i used the saracen transfer box so i kept the 6x6. I am doing a saladin at present with a M.A.N diesel engine but keeping the preselecter box. I dont think much of the old B series engine and they never seem to run 100% a diesel is a better option if you realy want to use it.

 

I have to say that the b80/b81 runs muich better with electronic ignition, as does any petrol engine...however they are a bit like a petulant child, there is always something to annoy you no matter how sweet they are at other times.

 

however a diesel engine with similar power, and that revs as hard and that is as compact isnt a very easy find...i would think that the cummins 6bta with a bit extra power, say 210 or 240 would be good in a saracen but you would certainly need to change the box...a good auto fitted to the transfer box would be brilliant...

 

however I have too many projects to do anything like this so staying std is where mine stay mostly...over time my ideal conversions would be:-

 

 

stalwart with K60, or french berliet 250 bhp engine, saracen with full auto box and 250 bhp diesel engine, all with mulit-fuel capability..keep posting pics, it will be a great project...

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Hi Rodney.

 

Crack on mate.

 

All the (oh no - how can you butcher such an original vehicle) discussions happened when I converted my Ward La France to a cummins diesel lump.

 

Best thing I ever done.

 

I was in the same boat as you - I wanted to use my Ward but the petrol lump was far too under-powered and too unreliable.

 

I took some convincing (4 years) to see the light but never had any problems since the conversion.

 

It basically boiled down to: do I want to stand and look at my vehicle and say, wow, isn't it original but I'm not going to drive it as something will break - or do I want to enjoy and experience driving and using the thing.

 

It will be interesting to see how your conversion works out - best of luck.

 

Markheliops

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I can see the point of an engine conversion, but not building it on a truck chassis. It's not a Saracen if you do.

 

Chris

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I can see the point of an engine conversion, but not building it on a truck chassis. It's not a Saracen if you do.

 

Chris

 

Fair point Chris - but I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out.

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Usual poppy cock, get on with the conversion, it will be excellent to see it working in its new underwear...just done the brakes on my stalwart and fitted her with her russian off road tyres, she still has her B81 engine but by the time I am finsihed she wont be so much stalwart but she will be a whole load of reliabilish fun, I hope...

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I have to admit I follow the attitude that if you paid for the vehicle you can do what you want with it.

 

My Pinzgauer will never be stock as in the Army, as that would mean it was poorly maintained and driven into the ground :-D. I post my Pinzgauer rebuild in here as there is little information on the diesels on the internet so I share what I can

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its yours do what you want look at mods to the centurion from starts to finnish if the sari had stay in service what mods might have happern budge put a diesel in the stolly for trials ferret in jordan diesel power landrover 101 was offer with diesel power and colis as a mod to keep in servive some bedford rl in germany were fitted with die sel power i wish all the luck with the project

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Hi Montie...

 

No plans to sell. Very excited to stop by the shop each day and see the progress. I will try to get a few new pictures posted tomorrow.

 

You are right on the funds... it is costing me about $120 an hour for labor. My wife is going to kill me when she gets the bill. I'm pretty sure she thinks this will cost a thousand or two...lol.

 

 

 

Hi Alaskan, I have seen a lot of South African Saracens (and taken a lot of pictures, posted on this forum) and although a lot of their engine compartments weren't accesible, I have yet to come across a diesel version. Also, all are Saracen 88's and I have yet to come across a South African Saracen that is not an 88! Liking or not liking what you are doing, it sure takes a lot of guts and funds! Do you intend to selloff eventually?

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I have to admit I follow the attitude that if you paid for the vehicle you can do what you want with it.

 

Totally agree with this,.

 

You are right on the funds... it is costing me about $120 an hour for labor. My wife is going to kill me when she gets the bill. I'm pretty sure she thinks this will cost a thousand or two...lol.

 

How kind of your wife to pay.

 

Good luck and hope it works out as you are hoping.

Look forward to seeing the finished article.

 

Mike

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