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diamond-t-steve

Rogers trailer, Register or not ???

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Hi all.

 

I fear I may open another can of worms here but it is somthing I need to ask for the sake staying legal.

A few years ago I purchased a wartime 45t Rogers trailer that I wanted to tow behind my Diamond T. I purchased the trailer from a collector in Belgium via an add on the internet and I had it collected on a low loader and brought to the UK via Immingham docks. The trailer is ex Belgium army and was built during the 1940/45 period.

The question I have is that I know that HGV trailers in the UK, although not issued with a number plate are subject to plating and testing and are registered and have a log book/registration document issued for them to be used on public roads. What I need to know is 1. Do I need/How do I go about obtaining a registration document for my trailer? 2. What paperwork do I need to register it if I need to? (I only have a hand writen bill of sale from the seller) and 3. There is another angle and that is that if it was a modern trailer it would come under special type regs and that would open another can of worms.

My head is spinning a little thinking about this but I do not wish to fall foul of any laws regarding this issue.

 

 

One other thing is that my trailer has had fitted by the Belgium army a full set of 24 new tyres and two spares that have been filled with foam rather than air to prevent blow outs caused by carrying tanks like the Leapard 1 which they had at the time. Will this be an issue in the UK?

 

Any help would be appreciated. Regards....Steve.

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How do you intend to use this trailer ? Will it be laden or unladen ? Private use only or for hire or reward ? It may well be it's use that decides the answers to your questions. :nut:

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Hi all.

 

I fear I may open another can of worms here but it is somthing I need to ask for the sake staying legal.

A few years ago I purchased a wartime 45t Rogers trailer that I wanted to tow behind my Diamond T. I purchased the trailer from a collector in Belgium via an add on the internet and I had it collected on a low loader and brought to the UK via Immingham docks. The trailer is ex Belgium army and was built during the 1940/45 period.

The question I have is that I know that HGV trailers in the UK, although not issued with a number plate are subject to plating and testing and are registered and have a log book/registration document issued for them to be used on public roads. What I need to know is 1. Do I need/How do I go about obtaining a registration document for my trailer? 2. What paperwork do I need to register it if I need to? (I only have a hand writen bill of sale from the seller) and 3. There is another angle and that is that if it was a modern trailer it would come under special type regs and that would open another can of worms.

My head is spinning a little thinking about this but I do not wish to fall foul of any laws regarding this issue.

 

 

One other thing is that my trailer has had fitted by the Belgium army a full set of 24 new tyres and two spares that have been filled with foam rather than air to prevent blow outs caused by carrying tanks like the Leapard 1 which they had at the time. Will this be an issue in the UK?

 

Any help would be appreciated. Regards....Steve.

 

A trailer in the UK does not have to be registered or have a log book.

 

If it going to be used unladen then it will not have to be tested or plated if it used laden then it must be tested and plated. (and that is chapter and verse according to the testing and plating regs)

However I would suggest that even if there is no legal requirement to test and plate then there is a moral requirement to make sure that a thing the size of a Rogers trailer is fully safe for the road

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However I would suggest that even if there is no legal requirement to test and plate then there is a moral requirement to make sure that a thing the size of a Rogers trailer is fully safe for the road

 

Not just a moral requirement but a legal one as well. Brakes, tyres, lights etc all need to be good working order and safe condition at all times while on the highway even if not subject to testing or plating. Any motor vehicle, or trailer, can be stopped and examined by the police/VOSA at anytime, anywhere and no more friendly warnings these days. If it's found to be unsafe the vehicle will be impounded and the driver will get fines plus points. Quite right too !

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As you are quite rightly are saying, Vehicle/trailer condition and maintainence are very important but that is not my question. It is the paperwork side that concerns me. I am not cirtain but in the back of my mind I am thinking that hgv semi/towed trailers have a log book.

 

I do not intend to use the trailer for hire and reward and for the time being it will only be used unladen but I do at some point wish to have a "load" for the trailer, either an armoured vehicle or I have been concidering a light railway locomotive from the 1940's that I have found.

 

Steve....

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As you are quite rightly are saying, Vehicle/trailer condition and maintainence are very important but that is not my question. It is the paperwork side that concerns me. I am not cirtain but in the back of my mind I am thinking that hgv semi/towed trailers have a log book.

 

I do not intend to use the trailer for hire and reward and for the time being it will only be used unladen but I do at some point wish to have a "load" for the trailer, either an armoured vehicle or I have been concidering a light railway locomotive from the 1940's that I have found.

 

Steve....

 

Steve

Trailers do not have a log book or any paperwork (apart from MOT and plating cert)

I work for a company that runs thousands of semi trailers and full trailers and none of these have a log book

You say you are going to use it unladen, it will then have to be legally compliant, as soon as you impose a load (whether for display or not) then the trailer will be deemed to be laden regardless of whether being used for hire and reward or display

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i seem to recall a possable thats possable loophole if the load is permanatly fixed to the trailer ie by welding not just say warrick strainers it becomes part of the trailer not a load imposed upon it anyone able to comment on that ?

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i seem to recall a possable thats possable loophole if the load is permanatly fixed to the trailer ie by welding not just say warrick strainers it becomes part of the trailer not a load imposed upon it anyone able to comment on that ?

 

VOSA do seem to recognise fixed loads but whether it could apply to us lot I don't know. The following is from a VOSA question and answer website and this section refers to Goods Vehicle Licensing exemptions. A Coles crane on AEC chassis is one example of a HMV that could be classified as fixed equipement. Unfortunately, my attention span was too short to find any other information more relevant to us on this VOSA site. I suppose the answer is to contact VOSA or the possibly the DVLA and ask them.

 

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/repository/10 253a.pdf

 

Vehicles with "fixed equipment"

Schedule 3 to the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995, lists the categories of goods vehicle that are exempt from operator licensing. Schedule 3 (15) (a) prescribes that the following type of vehicle is exempt:

A vehicle fitted with a machine, appliance, apparatus or other contrivance which is a permanent or essentially permanent fixture, provided that the only goods carried on the vehicle are *

(a) required for use in connection with the machine, appliance, apparatus or contrivance or the running of the vehicle;

This exemption usually applies in cases where a machine, appliance or apparatus (e.g a crane, compressor or generator) has been fixed or bolted on to the vehicle. Any goods carried on such a vehicle must be strictly in connection with the use of such equipment, (i.e. the vehicle should effectively form a moving platform for these permanent or essentially permanent fixtures, and absolutely no goods that are not essential for the equipment to function (e.g. loose tools or other articles) should be carried on the vehicle.

Therefore, (in light of the above) where you do not consider that you use of the vehicle would be exempt your best course of action would be to contact the national number (0300 1239000) and request a starter pack so that you may apply for a licence. A restricted licence should be sufficient, provided that you only carry your own goods.

I should point out that this is in VOSA s view and does not constitute legal opinion. As this is the case, we are unable to issue communications conferring exemption from goods vehicle operator licensing.

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I'm afraid you are re-opening a frequently-visited can of worms with this thread. There is a lot of info already on HMVF about trailer use with older vehicles, with specific regard to the laden/unladen question.

 

Note also that the towing vehicle's registration, taxation, testing and insurance status may have to change once towing a laden trailer, although there are many variables and many different interpretations of the regs.

 

- MG

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Sorry the Rogers are 2.895 meters wide and therefore fall outside the construction and use regulations – it cannot be plated in the usual way. It can only be used legally on the road under STGO either as an indivisible load carrier or as a recovery trailer, both of which are MOT exempt; however both have restrictions to their use. Have a look here for details http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1998/contents/made

 

It’s not as useful as an indivisible load carrier due to axle weights being limited to 12 ton per axle, and not being able to carry a load that can be transported by conventional means. As a recovery trailer you are only limited to a carrying a vehicle needing repairs and able to transport said vehicle to a place of repair.

 

As someone has suggested you can permanently fix a load to the trailer, this will then become a “Mobile Project Vehicle” and also MOT exempt, hover a MPV is covered by the C&U regulations which in your case you cannot comply with due to width. Our local VOSA office has confirmed that a permanently fixed load is one that can only be removed with workshop facilities.

 

Hope the above helps, it can be used on the roads but only under STGO, being MOT exempt however does not stop you taking it for any voluntary test such a brakes etc. You should however comply with the STGO regulations, have a read of the above link and post up any questions you may have, I’m sure someone on here can answer them

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And just to round off Grumpy's post, would it be correct to state that it can be used UNLADEN, towed by for example a DT980, by virtue of forming part of a 'Historic Vehicle' and therefore exempt from C+U Regs?

 

A related question please - if a Historic Vehicle tows a more modern trailer, I guess that trailer would have to be tested? What is that date cut-off for exemption of trailers from testing?

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And just to round off Grumpy's post, would it be correct to state that it can be used UNLADEN, towed by for example a DT980, by virtue of forming part of a 'Historic Vehicle' and therefore exempt from C+U Regs?

 

From what I can gather the status of “Historic Vehicle” does not exempt it from C&U regulations. To my knowledge there are only three ways to run a vehicle on the road legally, comply with C&U regulations, run under STGO or in extreme cases apply for Individual Vehicle Special Orders. Such an order would cover vehicles outside the scope of C&U regulations and STGO something like a Chieftain MBT springs to mind. I might be wrong but at first glance a DT980 towing a Rogers can only be used on the road under a STGO category or under IVSO, whether you can still use the Historic Tax status seems to be a grey area, unless someone knows different?

 

A related question please - if a Historic Vehicle tows a more modern trailer, I guess that trailer would have to be tested? What is that date cut-off for exemption of trailers from testing?

 

Over 3.5 ton - pre 1960 or if fitted with overrun brakes only.

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I was told a long time ago by a chap from the abnormal load office of West Mids Police, that as long as it was not being used for hire and reward you could apply for an exemption cirtificate from stgo regs for a loaded vehicle/trailer combination that is outside CU regs. But by virtue of it's weight if your over 44t you still have to notify your route to the relevent authority/agencies IE. Highways auth, Police, Network Rail Ect.

Weather this is true or the rules have been changed since then I do not know.

 

 

Quote..

From what I can gather the status of “Historic Vehicle” does not exempt it from C&U regulations.

 

A Dt 981's age. top speed and the fact it is a ballast tractor makes a difference with regards to C&U regs.

 

Quote..

I'm afraid you are re-opening a frequently-visited can of worms with this thread. There is a lot of info already on HMVF about trailer use with older vehicles, with specific regard to the laden/unladen question.

 

I know the subject has come up on other threads but I have not found anything regarding historic vehicles that would come under STGO regs

 

Regards ...Steve.

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I was told a long time ago by a chap from the abnormal load office of West Mids Police, that as long as it was not being used for hire and reward you could apply for an exemption cirtificate from stgo regs for a loaded vehicle/trailer combination that is outside CU regs. But by virtue of it's weight if your over 44t you still have to notify your route to the relevent authority/agencies IE. Highways auth, Police, Network Rail Ect.

Weather this is true or the rules have been changed since then I do not know.

 

 

Quote..

From what I can gather the status of “Historic Vehicle” does not exempt it from C&U regulations.

 

A Dt 981's age. top speed and the fact it is a ballast tractor makes a difference with regards to C&U regs.

 

Quote..

I'm afraid you are re-opening a frequently-visited can of worms with this thread. There is a lot of info already on HMVF about trailer use with older vehicles, with specific regard to the laden/unladen question.

 

I know the subject has come up on other threads but I have not found anything regarding historic vehicles that would come under STGO regs

 

Regards ...Steve.

 

The exemption you were told about is the IVSO, notification is easy now using the ESDAL website, last one I did took five minutes.

 

The age top speed etc of your DT981 does not exempt it from C&U regulations, just different sections apply unless of course you are running under STGO or IVSO where those regulations apply.

 

Historic Vehicles is just a tax classification, they still have to comply with one of the three regulations you can run under.

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All very interesting, Grumpy's comments from my experience all knock the nail on the head with regard to legality, interestingly i called the manager of our local HGV VOSA testing station this year to check his views on testing my 1955 Jauns trailer, two questions were mainly asked, does it have a load sensing valve and sprung suspension, in my case no to the first and walking beam to the second. I have confirmation this is classified as a plant trailer and excempt from test,so my assumption is that a Rogers may fall into the same category.

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For once i agree with what Grumpy is saying. The 981 is road legal and the trailer is outside CU because of the nature of its build but both must still be road worthy regardless of loaded or MT but not subject to plating or test. So as long as you dont fall foul of any design axle gross wieghts train wieghts you should have no problems. Eg dont try doing Mammot Henor haulage out of a job

Edited by cosrec

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All very interesting, Grumpy's comments from my experience all knock the nail on the head with regard to legality, interestingly i called the manager of our local HGV VOSA testing station this year to check his views on testing my 1955 Jauns trailer, two questions were mainly asked, does it have a load sensing valve and sprung suspension, in my case no to the first and walking beam to the second. I have confirmation this is classified as a plant trailer and excempt from test,so my assumption is that a Rogers may fall into the same category.

 

It could be classed as a Plant Trailer and these are run under the STGO Engineering Plant category, however this category has some pretty severe limitations to its use.

 

I think to summarise and answer the original question – the Rogers trailer is not required to be plated and Tested under two accounts. One is its age if used un-laden, two and this being the key factor here, is due to its width it falls outside the scope of the C&U regulations.

 

This second point is important to acknowledge, because it falls outside the C&U regulations there are certain limitations to its use on a public road as detailed in the STGO regulations (see my original link). Its doesn’t stop you using it, but you need to be aware and understand these limitations, in fact it is a bonus because you can use it laden and still be exempt from Plating and Testing. One the down side it cannot be used any where near its original design gross weight due to its axle configuration.

 

The third option of gaining an IVSO is unlikely as these are for vehicles that fall outside the C&U and STGO regulations and justification would be hard to prove.

 

Personally I would run it as a recovery trailer under STGO, this enables to you take it to place where recovery may be required, and we have often gone to a show with a recovery vehicle and ended up recovering something that has broken down while at the show. We have also in the past taken a vehicle needing repair to a show to meet up with experts in that particular vehicle and repaired at the show.

 

Hope this helps.

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Hello,

 

I need a Diamond T and Rogers trailer combo to carry a Churchill Tank in a World War II parade at the Goodwood Revival. Don't suppose you could help could you?

 

Thanks

Charles, 01243 755037

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