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British WW2 10 cwt GS Trailer


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From piecing together many threads I understand that the trailer was covered with a simple rectangular canvas tilt that allowed a 6" "overload" to be carried, ie the load could extend 6" above the sides of the trailer. This would make it around 7' by 5' assuming 6" either side, does anyone have actual dimensions of the tilt and spacing and size of the rope eyes? .....and any experience of anyone making one eg grade of canvas, colour etc?

 

Progress is good, latest photos of assembled frame, timber now well under way!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]88863[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]88864[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]88865[/ATTACH]

Chassis looks good - did you have to do much remedial work once you had got all the rubbish body off?

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I had to replace the five intermediate vertical support struts with new as the old ones were bashed about and had been weld repaired in all sorts of odd angles, but I managed to keep the corner struts, and also recover the mudguard support plates, two of the corner struts needed cutting and rewelding to get them back vertical, the chassis itself was ok apart from a couple of holes that needed welding up from some sort of bodged rear lift out tailgate, the grit blasting and priming came up very well, and I had no problem stripping the brakes and hubs, though the brake drums took a bit of persuading! The springs weren' too bad but i stripped cleaned and re-greased them.

 

(I am trying to keep as many bits original as I can as I don't really want "Triggers broom" ( 400 years old, and had six new heads and four new handles....)

 

Am hoping to get woodwork finished next weekend and hopefully the "golden" cleats will arrive soon, after the wood I only have new fore and aft support legs to remanufacture- the previous owner must have been using a sledgehammer on them- they had quite impressive mushroom heads!

 

I will drop some more photos on here later!

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Nearly done, photos tomorrow, does anyone know what markings would be on a trailer in late 1944, divisional signs and stars etc?

 

Struggling to fnd a decent photo showing things!

 

 

mike

 

The census number appears on each side at the front...3" high letter/numbers and a T plate attached to the rear right hand side (viewed from the rear). I have never seen any photos of other markings. Let's face it, although they are objects of our admiration they were just a trailer to transport mortars or ammunition and probably not worthy of any further claims of ownership.

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Trailer 99% finished.....markings to put on, I know Tony is the guru of such things, and she should just have a census number, but i am hankering after the 43 Wessex Wyvern and a recce divisional sign on the back to match the MW,........plus a couple of discrete small invasion stars......timeout to think required......

 

The cleats arrived and hopefully Sean is able to complete his too....I have some hints on timber for anyone wanting help....order 2 of the floorboards and one of the side boards for each slightly wider, say 1/2 inch, to allow one to be planed back to suit eventual floor width and variable heights of side support steels!

 

 

 

IMG_1802.jpg

Side

 

IMG_1803.jpg

Front with headboard down

IMG_1805.jpg

and again with headboard up

 

IMG_1808.jpg

rear view......

IMG_1813.jpg

The wonder of magnets......reflectors, number plate and lamps all removable in seconds......very strong magnets from RS!

 

IMG_1812.jpg

 

Lovely clean bottom......

 

Deep joy...just axholme to contact for the census number stencils, and first outing to the Mid-Suffolk Light railway 4-5 May!

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the famous photo of a Royal Signals jeep and 10cwt trailer at Pegasus Bridge seems to show a full set of markings on the tailgate - div sign, AoS square/unit number, census number and 20 MPH speed limit - so I guess anything goes.

 

Then there was also the seemingly shortlived "security" markings introduced for the invasion - Div sign/AoS square replaced by the unit's 5 digit unit number with three coloured bars underneath representing the numbers. Each number had a different colour assigned. It seems to be a continuation of the system often seen on BEF vehicles.

 

I've also just noticed on that photo that the T Plate is screwed to the wooden tailgate rather than to the two bars welded onto the RHS rear stanchion.

 

By 1943/44 the regulations indicated that census numbers should only be painted on the offside and rear of vehicles - so that's another option as well.

Edited by simon king
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  • 4 weeks later...
Excellent job Mike. Perfect behind the Bedford. I know what others have said, but as there appear to be no photos to disprove it, I think you should add your Div signs to the back to set it off.

 

Lots of mortar trailers here - and at 3.30 a 10cwt GS trailer with an HD sign on the LHS mudguard

 

 

 

sk

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Why, oh why does something have to come along and b******* up all our nice pre-conceived notions! Like Sean's trailer this appears to be a mortar trailer (mudguards, etc.) but with a rear drop down board and not the front drop down board as on a text book mortar trailer. Also it does not appear to be a bodge up but a professionally produced piece of kit. Were these converted after the war on a mortar trailer chassis by one company, possibly the one who produced the square type trailer hitch? This should keep us anoraks happy for some time.

Regarding raves, somebody used the term in an earlier post and sheep-like, I followed. I mean the metal uprights welded to the chassis, whatever their name is.

When She Who Must Be Obeyed was sorting through old photos so that she could chuck out a lot she came across these photos that I must have taken at a rally sometime in the late 1990's. I obviously took them as I assumed they were of a mortar trailer but in the light of this thread it is obvious that they are of one of the mystery trailers owned by Sean and Adrian with mortar trailer type mudguards, rare tow hitch and rear opening tail gate. Obviously not a lash up so who made them and when? Also what was their designation - answers on a postcard...trailer 20001.jpg

trailer0002.jpg

trailer0001.jpg

trailer 30001.jpg

trailer 20002.jpg

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Hi Tony,

If the census number painted on is correct then the trailer was built by Templewood. They only built two contacts, this one was S2557 Trailer 10cwt GS, 4.2" Ammunition and 4.2" Mortar, three types on one contract so you can see why the guards would all be the same.

 

regards Richard

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Virtually all the missing parts have now been located including the vital tow hitch and so work has commenced on the dismantling of the trailer. Its shown in the first picture with the draw bar balanced on the tow hook of its intended towing vehicle.

 

The maker was Orme Evans, a Wolverhampton firm and is a later No 2 model probably 1944/45 from a mixed contract of GS, 4.2" Mortar and Mortar ammunition carrying trailers. This particular one was thought originally to be a 10 cwt GS model due to its having an unfitted interior and a hinged rear tailgate,the Mortar and ammunition carriers have fitted interiors and drop down headboards only.

 

The first stages of examining and probing the woodwork revealed a second layer of planking laid over the original floor and the combined attacks of dry rot and woodworm makes it look likely that all the timber will have to be replaced and that a suitable softwood needs to be sourced. At the moment "Southern Yellow Pine" has been suggested and anyone with experience of rebuilding a wooden body is invited to comment. Its also obvious that a large number of Whitworth coach bolts will be required.

 

Along with the first setback comes the first mystery. From what little documentary and photographic record of these trailers that I have seen the GS version seemed to have a drop down tailboard only,our trailer has both a hinged headboard AND tailboard.

 

The headboard has the reinforced "slides" illustrated in the parts book as being fitted to the mortar ammunition carrier and which I suppose was to protect it and facilitate the unloading of heavy ammunition boxes -it is undoubtedly original.

The tailgate looks to be of the same professional factory construction in the same timber,using the same fittings and contemporary to the rest but with very slightly different hinges to the front panel.

 

The question is, was the GS tailboard arrangement :-

 

a) Original with both moveable head and tail boards.

 

b) Added at the factory,perhaps to a Mortar trailer already under construction ,as a result of a change in WD contract requirements.

 

c) A REME workshop conversion to increase the number of load carrying trailers versus Mortar trailers.

 

The whole body looks original and all built/modified at the same time and I would welcome any comments on or illustrations of these trailers especially in service. Any observations or pictures from owners of these trailers would be equally welcome.

 

Thanks,

David.

 

PS You can see we are lucky enough to have the T plate but all the reflectors are faded badly,does anyone have any experience of replacing them ?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55930[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55931[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55932[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55933[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55934[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55935[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55936[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55937[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55938[/ATTACH]

Tony/Richard,

 

The preparation of the Dingo,Jeep and K2 for Normandy next month have prevented anything from being done to our trailer since this post over two years ago. The pictures do show the tail/headboard arrangement and poses several questions which are still unanswered. Hopefully work will restart on the trailer this summer.

 

Since that post it has become apparent that trailers exist today with a hinged headboard, a hinged tailboard or a combination of both front and rear.

 

Both Orme Evans and TEC produced 10 cwt Number 2 trailers-Mortar,Mortar Ammunition and GS variants concurrently in the same contracts at their respective factories.that is a matter of contract record. It would seem that Mortar trailers were designed with a hinged headboard only,the GS with a hinged tailboard only.

The mudguard shape is a red herring as all 10 cwt Number 2 trailers by these makers had the rectangular mudguards.

 

Is it possible that at some stage a number of trailers were retrospectively converted as an improvement or even perhaps to increase the availability of normal load carrying GS trailers in use by providing a rear tailboard or was it possible that all combinations came out of the works during the war ?

 

Pictures of the trailers deployed behind the gun in an ammunition supply role shows the practicality of the front hinged headboard when the tow ring is placed on the ground and the headboard opened but for normal loading of ammunition or general stores surely a rear opening tailgate is preferable especially when the trailer is attached a towing vehicle. I have a friend who uses his Mortar trailer to collect logs and he curses the front opening headboard as an inconvenience.

 

So the question remains ?

 

David.

Edited by David B.
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Hi Tony,

If the census number painted on is correct then the trailer was built by Templewood. They only built two contacts, this one was S2557 Trailer 10cwt GS, 4.2" Ammunition and 4.2" Mortar, three types on one contract so you can see why the guards would all be the same.

 

regards Richard

 

Having never heard of Templewood it is possible that the unique tow hitch was their design. The ID plate on the trailer in my photos is in the same position as Adrian's (and also Sean's) so it may be that their version of the GS trailer is this style. Therefore it may be a GS trailer, not a Mortar trailer. Also apologies for the upside down photos - I can only blame the fact that it was Monday morning!!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Trailer seems to have sold very quickly......in demand no doubt....

 

latest photos of mine, sadly not at a show as yet, as no one had the sense (including me) to take one of the trailer and truck together, so its in its store, but now sports a great tarpaulin, manufactured by Luke at wear-n-tear tarpaulins at Stowmarket, as advertised here on HMVF, he did a great job, even came around to trial fit so the eyes matched the cleats and are the right place, he also fitted correct ropes to corners with appropriate "soft splice " in the eyes for the corners. It looks great. info@wear-n-tear.co.uk

 

DSCF0063.jpg

 

Here we are at Wetheringsett, firing a mortar with the beast behind us!

 

IMG_1842.jpg

DSCF0062.jpg

IMG_1847.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

Couple of questions on the 10cwt GS trailer with round wings

 

 

 

  • Were the carriage bolts recessed on the floor planks?
  • Did the sides of the mudguards flare out at the back?

 

 

Any advice really welcome, as I can't tell from photographs.

 

 

Thanks

 

Edit

 

Frame repairs completed and on wheels now

 

IMG_2391.jpg

 

Also finished the toolbox for the neck

IMG_2393.jpg

 

sk

Edited by simon king
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  • 1 month later...

Another question - I wonder if anyone can help?

 

Most of the stock pictures of the 10cwt GS trailers show countersink holes in the top rubbing strips and middle stanchion filler strips where the carriage bolts are inserted "from the outside". However - was this done by all manufacturers?

 

I ask because the rotting wooden parts I received with the trailer seem to have the carriage bolts inserted from the inside with the resultant hole for the nut being subsequently filled with a stopper of some sort. See below picture:

 

IMG_2469.jpg

 

This seems to tie up with a shot I captured from a BBC D-Day programme which seems to show "smoothed" rails and stanchion filler strips

10cwt trailer D-Day.jpg

 

Does this seem right? - or am I seeing things?

 

Thanks

 

Edit - in the absence of additional information, I decided to go with the evidence I had to hand in the old wooden sections. I therefore filled the holes once the nuts were tightened. I was lucky to find a local blacksmith who straightened up the ironwork for me.

 

The small plate is for the axle/tail-light switch and the tail-light itself. I'm using a Butler light pending discovery of a Lucas example. It's not original - but a bit of imagineering based on what they did with the switch on jeeps

IMG_2477.jpg

Finished the sides and headboard as well this week. Just now need to add the rubbing strip around the top - which I think is intended to protect the canvas cover from wearing

 

IMG_2481.jpg

 

getting there

sk

Edited by simon king
more progress
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  • 5 weeks later...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]77713[/ATTACH]

 

Hello Tony,

 

I am just about to have made a steel plate,the final artwork version of which will show a few slight differences from this early draft of yours.

Can you help me out with one more piece of information from your old plate please before I get on with stamping up my new one when it's made.

 

What form of numbering is used to stamp the blank square after "No" and before "OEC". Is it the simple number 2 or the Roman numerals II. ?

 

If anyone else has an intact plate from this contract and can confirm as well,please feel free to comment. My plate is rusted out at this point.

 

As an afterthought, I could have some additional plates made for Orme Evans trailers from this contract should anyone else need one. They will be in steel as the original plates were and I am just waiting for the final artwork and costing before going ahead.

 

many thanks,

David.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]77713[/ATTACH]

 

Hello Tony,

 

I am just about to have made a steel plate,the final artwork version of which will show a few slight differences from this early draft of yours.

Can you help me out with one more piece of information from your old plate please before I get on with stamping up my new one when it's made.

 

What form of numbering is used to stamp the blank square after "No" and before "OEC". Is it the simple number 2 or the Roman numerals II. ?

 

If anyone else has an intact plate from this contract and can confirm as well,please feel free to comment. My plate is rusted out at this point.

 

As an afterthought, I could have some additional plates made for Orme Evans trailers from this contract should anyone else need one. They will be in steel as the original plates were and I am just waiting for the final artwork and costing before going ahead.

 

many thanks,

David.

 

Hi David,

 

My plate has rotted out in the same place but going by other plates (from different trailers) I have seen, the number 2 has been used rather than the Roman numerals ll. This is logical as it is simpler and easier to use one stamp instead of two. I would be interested in one of your plates so please keep me posted.

Tony

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Hi David,

 

My plate has rotted out in the same place but going by other plates (from different trailers) I have seen, the number 2 has been used rather than the Roman numerals ll. This is logical as it is simpler and easier to use one stamp instead of two. I would be interested in one of your plates so please keep me posted.

Tony

 

Thank you Tony - hope you are well.

 

That would be logical as it fits with the original trailer designation too. I am just waiting for the final proof having checked hole spacings etc. when it arrives I will post it together with the cost of additional plates. Sadly,they will be made outside of the UK but carriage should not be much.

 

Best wishes,

David.

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I am about to drill the holes for the pins in the tubular support legs. Is it possible that someone could measure the distance of the holes for the "up" and "down" pins from the ground for me please. Otherwise I'll have to try scaling from photos.

 

For anyone with an SS Cars built trailer, Robert at Dataplates4U can supply reproduction plates from stock. Looking at surviving plates, on Jaguar-built GS trailers, it seems that the four digit chassis number is linked to the "last three" of the census number

 

IMG_2302.jpg

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I am about to drill the holes for the pins in the tubular support legs. Is it possible that someone could measure the distance of the holes for the "up" and "down" pins from the ground for me please. Otherwise I'll have to try scaling from photos.

 

For anyone with an SS Cars built trailer, Robert at Dataplates4U can supply reproduction plates from stock. Looking at surviving plates, on Jaguar-built GS trailers, it seems that the four digit chassis number is linked to the "last three" of the census number

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]98403[/ATTACH]

 

Nice looking plate Simon,is it brass or zinc ? Some interesting differences to the Orme Evans plates which seem to be printed as contract specific.

 

As well as being made of steel the OE plates have only two fixing holes which I suppose could be another way in helping to determine the manufacturer from the remaining holes left in the drawbar.

Edited by David B.
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brass or zinc? As well as being made of steel the OE plates have only two fixing holes which I suppose could be another way in helping to determine the manufacturer from the remaining holes left in the drawbar.

 

It's brass - but apparently left uncoated so it patinates naturally.

 

I seem to have collected photos from the net of dataplates for these trailers - OEC also used cast brass plates......

 

data plate - OEC brass 2.jpg

 

Preumably it's an early vs. late thing

 

There are more variations in these trailers than I expected. SSC built trailers have curved rear edges to the neck handle brackets whilst other manufactures seemed to use angular edges. They're also constructed differently with the carriage bolt going in from the inside of the body, a hex nut on the outside and the countersink then filled flat - which is fine until you need to replace a plank.................

 

Other manufacturers seemed to be more practical and put the carriage bolt in from the outside, nut inside, and left the countersink unfilled. I suppose it had something to do with the fact that SSC had been a coachbuilder

data plate - OEC brass.jpg

Edited by simon king
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