cosrec Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) That looks like typical military spec wiring, all the same colour, and no particular pointers as to what goes where. Do have fun with it. New boom looks very useful, is it long enough to pick up a coach by the axle? Nice bit of flexi on the exhaust, makes it easy to fit silencer etc where you like. Bare silencer looks like it might need a safety guard round it eventually The wiring has actually got got numbers printed along its length on the insulation what it means or how it works as yet i dont know. But will get sorted Will measure boom length an put up guessing its around 18" longer than original plus has 52" hydraulic extension plus spec head will add a bit more length pick a coach up tell you later when i try it out the flex is the original that went over the front axle My thoughts on all milatry spec wiring or piping is why use 1 wire pipe when you can make 15 do the same job Edited September 1, 2011 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 The wiring has actually got got numbers printed along its length on the insulation what it means or how it works as yet i dont know. But will get sorted If you can get hold of the wiring diagrams, it is quite easy to follow. I may be able to identify numbers for you, and those pressures you asked about. Found my notes last night, then internet failed. Will try and find time tonight. The wiring is more complex because of the various controls around the vehicle. regards, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 If you can get hold of the wiring diagrams, it is quite easy to follow. I may be able to identify numbers for you, and those pressures you asked about. Found my notes last night, then internet failed. Will try and find time tonight. The wiring is more complex because of the various controls around the vehicle. regards, Richard Thanks for offer of help. If i dont reply its because i am away for a week on holiday Regards Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Thanks for offer of help. If i dont reply its because i am away for a week on holiday Regards Steve Steve, The last photo you posted, of the panel with mass of loose wiring, there is a circuit board missing from it, which had about 30 relays, voltage stabiliser, remote proportional control, time delay relay, and so on. If you wish to put you own remote on, for the winch, and use the crane only from the operators seat, you could simplify this somewhat. Will look up those pressures. regards, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Steve, Main relief valve is 250 Bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Steve, The last photo you posted, of the panel with mass of loose wiring, there is a circuit board missing from it, which had about 30 relays, voltage stabiliser, remote proportional control, time delay relay, and so on. If you wish to put you own remote on, for the winch, and use the crane only from the operators seat, you could simplify this somewhat. Will look up those pressures. regards, Richard Hi my idea was to work the under lift and both winches from hand held remote the side stabilizers from the switches that already fited and make up another switch board for the rear legs. Call me old fashioned but for the crane functions i dont think you can beat the hands on feel of levers. We have a hiab with remote control and i hate it as it has no levers as such and i dont take it on recoveries if there is another truck in the yard. I have by the way got the circuit board and it it looks ok having being examined and passed 2009 but i took it out as i like simplicity and the functions i want on remote arnt too sensitive. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Hi my idea was to work the under lift and both winches from hand held remote the side stabilizers from the switches that already fited and make up another switch board for the rear legs. Call me old fashioned but for the crane functions i dont think you can beat the hands on feel of levers. I am with you on crane operating Steve. Much prefered to sit in the seat and operate the levers better control than using the remote and a better view of operations. Good as they were, they are a complex system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 In need of a bit of knowledge/help here. Have done a bit of investigation on crane and all other hydraulic functions. in readiness for fitting radio remote. If am correct each individual spool is operated by double acting solinoids so have located three wires to each solinoid. But if i power these up nothing happens. Further investigation i found another solinoid near the wiring box i guess this is to activate the whole system the solinoid has two wires to it. It tests out as being good circuit wise but still nothing happens when power is applied. Any ideas it seems as though the system wont power up the all function work fine on manual levers am i missing something somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protruck Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 hi Cosrec. I don't know the foden that well. but are there any relays in line that energise the soleniods. if so may be worth a look, as i've had problems with corroded contacts in the relays before on a few scammells before now. Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 hi Cosrec. I don't know the foden that well. but are there any relays in line that energise the soleniods. if so may be worth a look, as i've had problems with corroded contacts in the relays before on a few scammells before now. Clive No i have ripped out the whole of the circuit boards and i am going direct to solinoids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) What have you got going direct to the spool valve solenoids? A supply from a battery or feed from the correct operating lever? You have 3 wire solenoids suggesting proportional valves - these have to controlled by a compatible proportional lever. It may not be a case of putting the same voltage across two of the wires with the other earthed, this might signal 'no movement'. I've made up a 2 spool proportional Danfoss unit including doing all the wiring and have wiring diagrams for this type - not the easiest of things to get a grip of as I recall :nut:. What make are your spools, solenoids and levers? Edited September 15, 2011 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 What have you got going direct to the spool valve solenoids? A supply from a battery or feed from the correct operating lever? You have 3 wire solenoids suggesting proportional valves - these have to controlled by a compatible proportional lever. It may not be a case of putting the same voltage across two of the wires with the other earthed, this might signal 'no movement'. I've made up a 2 spool proportional Danfoss unit including doing all the wiring and have wiring diagrams for this type - not the easiest of things to get a grip of as I recall :nut:. What make are your spools, solenoids and levers? I think you may have something there as it will have been proportianal control originally. I dont seem to able to find any makers name on the spools. Vehicle is insulated return what i have done is find common wire connecting negative and then being putting current up one or other wire but nothing. Ithink the problem lies in the pilot side of hydraulics is not getting pressure possibly because the 2 wire soliniod is not activating internally. i guess a hydraulic circuit diagram+ wiring diagram might be the first place to look any body know where i would get one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) Here is a wiring diag. for the basic Danfoss proportional control unit. The solenoid operates by comparing supply voltage and regulated voltage. Note the solenoid plug terminals - these should be a standard notation. Ignore 3. 1 is supply voltage, 2 is regulated (signal) voltage, E is neg. I don't think if you would get full solenoid movement if you put NEG to E and POS to only 1 as the supply voltage 1 can be 11 to 30v but the signal voltage 2 varies between 0.25 and 0.75 of the supply voltage, with the neutral (closed spool position) being 0.5 supply voltage. So say supply voltage is 24v which appears at terminal 1. Then the voltage at terminal 2 for neutral position would be 12v, full open one way 6v and full open the other way 18v. Edited September 15, 2011 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 many thanks for that will give it a try next time i have a look. I suppose i could check out by testing voltage out of side leg switches as these are the original 4 position switches that control two spools each. all spools on all hydraulic functions look identical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 In need of a bit of knowledge/help here. Have done a bit of investigation on crane and all other hydraulic functions. in readiness for fitting radio remote. If am correct each individual spool is operated by double acting solinoids so have located three wires to each solinoid. But if i power these up nothing happens. Further investigation i found another solinoid near the wiring box i guess this is to activate the whole system the solinoid has two wires to it. It tests out as being good circuit wise but still nothing happens when power is applied. Any ideas it seems as though the system wont power up the all function work fine on manual levers am i missing something somewhere Hi, You will have to excuse me as it is 15+ years since working on these wonderful machines. The fact that you have not got all the electrical circuitry connected could be a problem, but .... i think that I have spotted something. You say that all the hyd systems work by using hand controls direct to spool valves, but not electrically. Now I am wondering if one of the emergency taps has been shut. These are there in case of an electrical failure and will allow systems to be operated in an emergency, but without any safety features, ie load cut outs, etc. If you go to the platform behind the cab, looking rearwards, you have a bank of spool valves, (magnet valve block), to the left is a square block with a square tap in it, on the end is a line stamped, showing postion of the tap, normal use it is a through flow (lined up with pipe unions), emergency postion is to shut that flow off. Check this out and if it is shut, turn it to open and try your electrical solenoids again. regards, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 To add, there is another emergency tap, and I think it is up on the crane operators platform adjacent to the spool valve block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Many thanks again yes i noticed these its too dark to go look now but i climbed on a foden a week or so ago and noticed these little taps had locking wire on mine dont so another lead. Plenty more to go at now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Many thanks again yes i noticed these its too dark to go look now but i climbed on a foden a week or so ago and noticed these little taps had locking wire on mine dont so another lead. Plenty more to go at now See how you get on. The more I think about this, the more I can remember Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 16, 2011 Author Share Posted September 16, 2011 Had a look at Foden again to day. Removed original joystick from leg station to day they are a simple bank of four on/off switches. Common feed 24v that gives out 24v down one of four wires dependinging which way the joystick is placed. The joystick switch is a XD2 PA24 and on the internet it is decribed as a four way on/off. This pionts to the solinoids that are controled by these switchs not being proportional. Athough i guess something could have happened to these signals on the way through that big circuit board. Next i stripped out all the wiring where it came to the main box from the 11 solinoids so i could identify wires to each individual solinoid. This done i have ended up with 11 sets of three wires going to each individual hydraluic spool soliniod. Plus two wires going to another solinoid i connected a live and return to this and found it worked via air the freewheel for rear winch. I then tested with a 24v test light individual wires coming from each set of three wires. I found no matter which way i put feed in both the other wires lit up test light. Confused i took of the plug to the solinoid and on striping the plug found the wires were joined together by what i presume are resistors. So if any body can help how should these be wired. The two taps metioned by richard are at the moment both in the flow through position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Are you simply trying to check the condition of the spool block before getting a radio remote system fitted? So do the crane spools have manual levers on - if so do they function correctly? If not, can you take one of the remote levers off and wire this up to a spool plug in order to test spool? You could try the terminal notation on the danfoss diagram, the terminals on the lever unit should have some markings on which we could decipher. If you are happy the spool valves are ok the only thing you need for a radio system is a power supply point - I would think the suppliers of the radio equipment will wire spools plugs up direct to their onboard control box so you don't need to worry about any of the complex original stuff. It certainly sounds typically army complex!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 16, 2011 Author Share Posted September 16, 2011 Are you simply trying to check the condition of the spool block before getting a radio remote system fitted? So do the crane spools have manual levers on - if so do they function correctly? If not, can you take one of the remote levers off and wire this up to a spool plug in order to test spool? You could try the terminal notation on the danfoss diagram, the terminals on the lever unit should have some markings on which we could decipher. If you are happy the spool valves are ok the only thing you need for a radio system is a power supply point - I would think the suppliers of the radio equipment will wire spools plugs up direct to their onboard control box so you don't need to worry about any of the complex original stuff. It certainly sounds typically army complex!!! The levers are manual directly on to the actual spools and all work great. Out of the back of the spool valve are the main pipe outlets which go of to the rams winches etc at the front of each spool are two smaller pipes that go to individual valve blocks all linked together with very complicated steel hydraulic piping under each individual block is another oblong sqaure block with a standard connector on it. I guess this is some sort of solinoid. When i say connecter i mean the sort with the screw in the middle and when pulled of it exposes three terminals on the block. As i said i would a have experimented today with eg your suggested wiring method or perhaps swapping polarity or feed in and swappin wires out but it put me of finding these little resistors in the back of each plug linking all three wires together. I have no worries at all about fitting the remote just how to wire to actvate the solinoids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Wow. Sounds like a solenoid valve (proportional?) is controlling a hydraulic pilot (proportional?) control system for the main spool valves. Out of my depth here I'm afraid. Keep things simple is my motto, and I reckon you're right to try to do the same to make it a good useable worhorse! I'd love to see a schematic of that lot, both hydraulic and electric! :banana: Do you reckon Dave Crouch would have a manual you could copy bits of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) As i said i would a have experimented today with eg your suggested wiring method or perhaps swapping polarity or feed in and swappin wires out but it put me of finding these little resistors in the back of each plug linking all three wires together. I have no worries at all about fitting the remote just how to wire to actvate the solinoids I am certain they are not resistors, but diodes. These allow current to flow only one way. You need to find a copy of the Army workshop manual for the Foden Recovery, it is a publication called an AESP (Army Equipment Support Publication), the number of which is AESP 2320-H-502-201, the last number denotes the section of of the manual, so 201 would not give you deep enough info but this will give you something to look for. When you get the right section there are electrical circuit drawing on double A4 pages, but they all really need taping together so that you can follow the circuits through. i had one with a burnt loom from the main panel and was able to salvage wiring from a written off Foden. Not sure, but have a feeling the spool valves may be Hawes manufacture. Just to add, the last number on the AESP for what you need, will be higher than 201, cannot be more precise than that. Edited September 16, 2011 by Richard Farrant added info on AESP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) Had a real pain of a day. Covinced my self i could sort this solinod wiring thing out. tried every thing/combination i could think of with wires. Richard was correct about the little black things in plug they where diodes not resistors. So thankfully this reduced the total combinations i could try.At one piont i added a 2 homemade resistors made out an old element out of a hair dryer so i could put 6 and 18v voltages down the different wires. Remember all the time i had to have the engine running at 800rpm and i was in a shed the vibrations kept working lose jury rigged connections i had made. I got so i was about to lose it big style and total result nothing. Peed of i decided to give it a rest whilst having a cup of tea i started to think about it again maybe i am trying to make this too complicated. Back out again removed the plug of soliniod. this revelled four terminals only three of which have ever had connection to them. Started engine again put a +feed to the terminal that had never been used and -return to the terminal next to it Bingo satisfying whoosh lever moved and winch started going round. Moved -return to another terminal whoosh again winch moved opposite way. Sat there full twenty minutes moving wire from terminal to terminal could not belive it was that simple. Got to be a snag here some where i thought am overloading the solinoids with 24 volt so tried again put my home made resistors in to reduce voltage to 6v(nothing happened) 18V (lever moved but only slightly). Next put full 24v in once more and have left for an hour engine not running of course. On return felt soliniod maybe warmed up a little but barely detactable. started engine again still working. Result i am a happy chappie i know a bit of simple wire swapping in the plugs and throwing away diodes i have a dead simple to wire up system that will connect to my radio remote when it arrives. All being well should be able to get legs up and working from leg stations switches next time i get chance to work on it. Conclusions from all this i have no doubt that the soliniods have originally being wired to some sort of proportional control but how the hell this was i dont know and now i am not too bothered as the unused terminal has enabled me to achieve what i wanted to do. By the way thanks for the advise from NOS and Richard Farrent As a little aside to this i have up to now removed 6kg of wiring from original thats about £30 to by a pint to celebrate Edited September 17, 2011 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Glad to hear you have made a breakthrough. I know how frustrating this can be. Only thing that I can see is that you have done away with overload cut outs and limit switches, unless you intend to rewire these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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