How Many Great War Vehicles Remaining???

[bobs1918]

Hello gents

I was wondering if anybody has tried to get a count on the number of WW 1 vehicles remaining. I have also posted the question on the U.S. forum dedicated to pre ww2 vehicles. If you would then either post your vehicle or one that you know to be in a collection or museum maybe we could get a total as we approach the 100th anniversary of the Great War.

I will start with the 4 known m1918 Dodge Light Repair trucks.

2 in private hands , 1 at Ft MacArthur , 1 at PA Military History Museum.

[Ivor Ramsden]

There's a WW1 Albion here. I don't know what model. It's in civvie colours but it's definitely ex-WD.

[Ian L]

Hello gents

I was wondering if anybody has tried to get a count on the number of WW 1 vehicles remaining. I have also posted the question on the U.S. forum dedicated to pre ww2 vehicles. If you would then either post your vehicle or one that you know to be in a collection or museum maybe we could get a total as we approach the 100th anniversary of the Great War.

I will start with the 4 known m1918 Dodge Light Repair trucks.

2 in private hands , 1 at Ft MacArthur , 1 at PA Military History Museum.

 

Theres a WD WW1 truck in the office window of Grundon waste disposal at Benson Oxfordshire (the old Gurneys Vauxhall dealership) looks very nice.

[nz2]

A few problems in answering this query.

 

What state of originality are we prepared to accept as one being a Great War vehicle. Short of having a chassis number that relates to a War Dept order ( Leyland and Thornycroft are both well listed), there is otherwise those lorries acquired under the subsidy scheme and outside the WD ordering sequence,

Then at the end of the War the refurbishment of trucks using often parts salvaged, and then sold off to the civilian market. With replacement parts, cabs and body styles, the military style was lost.

Also what quantity of parts becomes a truck for this exercise as opposed to a complete unit.

There are vehicles out there dressed up to be WW1 but are latter chassis and parts.

Tim (Great War Truck) posted a list some time back of WW1 trucks in the UK.

 

We have here a Leyland of 1916 with a chassis number belonging to a WD order grouping.

A Thornycroft that could well be, but with no chassis number to confirm it.

Doug:yawn:

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

On a similar note, many vehicles were comandeered for military use, but did not see service in france.

 

Our Marshall steam tractor was one such vehicle, we assume it was either used for driving a baler for baling hay, or perhaps haulage. We have a picture of it with military markings.

[Pzkpfw-e]

An impossible question to answer?

Maybe AFvs are the easiest ones to list.

A7V - 1

"Little Willie" - 1

Mks 1-V - 18 known for certain (plus maybe 2 others?)

Whippets - 5

Schneider - 1

Saint Chamond - 1

M1918 3 Ton - 2

 

MkVIII Liberty - 2 or 3

MkIX Troop Transport - 1

Skeleton Tank - 1

 

Renault FT17 - about 50 complete/large parts, but how many of these were manufactured prior to 11/11/18? Or is it sufficient to have been a design that started production prior to this date?

As other posters note, when do you start/stop considering a vehicle as a survivor when looking at restorations? (Shades of the Bentley "Old Number One" http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html and the various WW2 aircraft "Restorations", where a manufacturer's plate seems to be sufficient at times.

[Minesweeper]

All very difficult to sort out and organise - you would need to have categories or classes!

[Old Bill]

As Father says, we need categories to answer this one. Tim (AKA 'Great War Truck') and I have made a list of all (well, as many as we can trace!) of the surviving solid tyred commercial vehicles up to 1918 which exist or are rumoured to exist in the UK. Off the top of my head, there are of the order of 100. They can be sub-divided into military and civilian vehicles and sorted by current state. For example, there is a very nice McCurd van painted in Tate Sugars livery. This has always been a civilian vehicle but McCurd did make some for the military. Our Dennis is restored as a Subsidy 'A' class lorry as close to military spec as we can get it. However, it has been built up from bits and was never a single vehicle with a definite provenance. We have enough bits to put together a Thornycroft J type but at the moment, it is only a pile of bits with undefined history. We plan to make it a military lorry but do you count it at the moment? To our knowledge, there are about fourteen military lorries from the Great War in this country which are in military guise or which are to be rebuilt as such. There are also a number which have seen service with the military but which are now in civilian livery.

 

I think, perhaps, we need to more closely define the question!

 

Just my two penn'orth.

 

Steve

[retriever]

I have a 1918 Douglas dispatch riders motorcycle built for WD. More than likely more motorcycles survive than all other ww1 vehicles together

[CornishMade]

As Father says, we need categories to answer this one. Tim (AKA 'Great War Truck') and I have made a list of all (well, as many as we can trace!) of the surviving solid tyred commercial vehicles up to 1918 which exist or are rumoured to exist in the UK. Off the top of my head, there are of the order of 100. They can be sub-divided into military and civilian vehicles and sorted by current state. For example, there is a very nice McCurd van painted in Tate Sugars livery. This has always been a civilian vehicle but McCurd did make some for the military. Our Dennis is restored as a Subsidy 'A' class lorry as close to military spec as we can get it. However, it has been built up from bits and was never a single vehicle with a definite provenance. We have enough bits to put together a Thornycroft J type but at the moment, it is only a pile of bits with undefined history. We plan to make it a military lorry but do you count it at the moment? To our knowledge, there are about fourteen military lorries from the Great War in this country which are in military guise or which are to be rebuilt as such. There are also a number which have seen service with the military but which are now in civilian livery.<br>

<br>

I think, perhaps, we need to more closely define the question!<br>

<br>

Just my two penn'orth.<br>

<br>

Steve

We would like to agree with the above, the Peerless Father restored was original in the metal department, but the cab and butt were restored to civilian use, it spent most of it's working life as civilian but was it used for ww1 no one alive to tell us!!!

Edited July 12, 2011 by CornishMade

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

As Father says, we need categories to answer this one. Tim (AKA 'Great War Truck') and I have made a list of all (well, as many as we can trace!) of the surviving solid tyred commercial vehicles up to 1918 which exist or are rumoured to exist in the UK. Off the top of my head, there are of the order of 100. They can be sub-divided into military and civilian vehicles and sorted by current state. For example, there is a very nice McCurd van painted in Tate Sugars livery. This has always been a civilian vehicle but McCurd did make some for the military. Our Dennis is restored as a Subsidy 'A' class lorry as close to military spec as we can get it. However, it has been built up from bits and was never a single vehicle with a definite provenance. We have enough bits to put together a Thornycroft J type but at the moment, it is only a pile of bits with undefined history. We plan to make it a military lorry but do you count it at the moment? To our knowledge, there are about fourteen military lorries from the Great War in this country which are in military guise or which are to be rebuilt as such. There are also a number which have seen service with the military but which are now in civilian livery.

 

I think, perhaps, we need to more closely define the question!

 

Just my two penn'orth.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

I realise that the Thornycroft will be a bitza like the Dennis, but I recall father identified the particular wagon that you have the gearbox, bulkhead, rotten fuel tank and knackered chassis off. The Caernarvonshire licencing records had it there, CC1720 as I recall.

 

Is it thus possible to trace that particular (very incomplete) wagon to an original owner?

[nz2]

Another group of vehicles to question.

Those used by the military on a short term use. Hired for a particular events. I have here a photo of an early Daimler truck carrying troops in rural New Zealand (WW1 period). It has the name of the local trucking firmpainted upon it and from discussions with the firms owners (the same family) that truck was not commandeered by the army. Used however to transport local troops for regular exercises.

Doug:nut:

[bobs1918]

I am glad that my posting has elicited some thoughtful replies. A key part of the inquiry then needs to be redefined. To provide the most accurate estimate as to remaining Great War vehicles we should have at least two categories. Those vehicles, either original or restored, and built soley for the war effort prior to 11-11-18 are category one. Category one vehicles should at least have some substantial portion, ie frame or body, meeting the criteria established for category 1. When the actual history of say a chassis is unknown we can categorize these vehicles as Category 1-a

Vehicles commandeered for service but originally built for commercial use are category 2.If now reconfigured as civilian this could be Cat 2-a

We can add a third category as those period vehicles done up in military configuration but NOT in any way an actual survivor. This last group would not be considered in the Grand Total of Great War vehicles remaining.

There are a number of First War tanks but these should occupy their own distinct category.

I welcome any further refinement

bob

There is also an ORIGINAL Cadillac touring model 57 here in the states that has a documented WW 1 pedigree.

[Roy Larkin]

Those vehicles, either original or restored, and built soley for the war effort prior to 11-11-18 are category one.

 

The date should probably be extended to July 1919, which is when the Great war actually ended. New vehicles were being built for the WD up to that date, either under existing contracts not being cancelled or new contracts. Both the Allies and the Germans were actively replenishing stocks in case the Armistice proved to be only a temporary cessation and not the final ending and the British had a large, though gradually diminishing occupation force in Germany after 11/11/1918 and it was mid-1919 before many vehicles started to come home.

[bobs1918]

good point....much like ww 2 airplanes built too late to see action but certainly warbirds

[Old Bill]

Let's try to make this a photographic list. I will tell a little of what I know about each vehicle and you can put them in your own categories. Most of these pictures, we have taken ourselves but one or two have been sent to us. I am pretty sure I won't offend anyone with my choices but if I inadvertently post something you would rather I didn't, please let me know and I will take them down instantly.

 

Right, lets get the ball rolling. To start off, here is one that some of you will know. It is our Dennis Subsidy 'A' class of which the chassis is 1918. It has been built up from almost all original Dennis parts from a variety of sources and carries a brand new replica body built to original drawings. It has no individual provenance but is as close to original specification as we can make it.

 

 

[Old Bill]

This is our Autocar UF21 of 1917. This is an entirely original chassis (well, as original as a 94 year old vehicle can be!) with a new military body of a style used in East Africa. This lorry operated in France, probably as a water tanker.

 

 

[Old Bill]

This 1917 Hallford three-tonner has been built up from parts obtained from a variety of sources and carries a new body. It resides near Milton Keynes.

 

 

[Old Bill]

Now, a Pierce Arrow. This one served with the French Army during the war and was later purchased by its regular driver. Now owned by Grundon, it was rebuilt by Richard Peskett into a British Army configuration.

 

 

[Old Bill]

This is the Imperial War Museum's Thornycroft J type AA Gun lorry. It served in France and later went on show at the Crystal Palace when the museum was based there. Later, to save space, it was returned to Thornycrofts who stored it for many years. Later, they moved it out into the yard to deter the Hun during the Second War. Sometime after, its engine was removed and sold and then it was sold in its entirety to Tom Redburn who fitted it with a Commer engine. At some point, the IWM bought it back and it was completely overhauled and rebuilt with the correct engine by Richard Peskett.

 

 

[Great War truck]

We would like to agree with the above, the Peerless Father restored was original in the metal department, but the cab and butt were restored to civilian use, it spent most of it's working life as civilian but was it used for ww1 no one alive to tell us!!!

 

The Peerless is almost certainly ex WD as it has the correct pattern hooks on the front. Didnt your father obtain some bits for it from Argentina? Was there anything else that might be of interest to someone restoring a Peerless.

 

Tim

[Great War truck]

To avoid the pitfall of "I know of a WW1 Napier in a barn, but no one is allowed to look at it", i think we should follow steves idea of posting photos of them as evidence. Then i think Bob should catagorise them. I presume that this is not just the UK, but worldwide as well?

 

Tim

 

So here is another one. A very original and profesionally restored daimler Y Type.

 

 

A Holt 75 from the same owner (although whether it is military or not is still open to some debate)

 

 

An FWD Model B in USA

 

 

And a Liberty B with the same owner:

 

 

Both very original i think.

 

FWD Mitchell Model B in the South East of the UK:

 

 

Foden steam wagon. Another very original

 

 

Fiat at Duxford.

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Great War truck

[Old Bill]

This splendid machine is a French Army De Dion of 1914. It turned up in Brighton a few years ago having been driven over from France!

[bobs1918]

ok gentleman

YES THIS IS TO BE WORLDWIDE

I would be glad to undertake the tabulation and categorization of remaining Great War vehicles.

I started here in the States via internet search and previous posts on forums.

Liberty Trucks all makes:

Ft. Eustis

National Museum of the Air Force

Ft. Bliss

First Division Museum

Virginia Military Preservation Association

National Infantry Museum Oregon Military Museum

Iowa Military Museum

Allen County Museum Lima Ohio

Camp Creek Waverly Neb

National Marine Corps Museum Quantico VA

Oregon military Museum

Texas Military Forces Museum

Leo Frank chassis

Canada-location unknown

One sold in Mass year or so ago

Joe Bohannon collection

Motor Transport Museum Campo CA(possibly more than one)

Wyman Living History Museum .Wyoming

Oliver..........Southern France

Hays Truck Museum Woodland CA

Collector in Sussex, UK (see posted picture)

Now please submit other known vehicles can be added or more clarification made on listed units.

We can do this for each vehicular type and for the moment I do not think it necessary to be too specific as to whether the vehicle actually served or was made during the period but rather is it a representative of a Great War vehicle. We can list any vehicle meeting that criteria and in parenthesis we can add any pertinent information that is provided with the machine's submission.

How does that sound???

In order not to overwhelm me with your submissions and to allow time for those interested enough to participate can we then do this one vehicle for say 2 weeks and then open it up for the next group? We can then move the search to your side of the Atlantic for a British made lorry/vehicle type.

Edited July 24, 2011 by bobs1918

[Runflat]

I don't think we need be too prescriptive about this, but we like photos. By all means start with one type and we'll see what the collective knowledge can pull together. Can you post some pics of the Liberties in your list?