IMPORTANT SAFETY ISSUE: Driving vintage Military Vehicles on High Speed Roads

[cordenj]

Thanks for the input guys,

 

Thought I'd share another practical idea that a fellow IMPS member uses whenever he is going to travel on a motorway with his Jeep:

 

He fixes a marker board on the spare wheel.

These marker boards are designed to be used on motorhomes when bicylcels are hung on the back. I believe they are a legal requirement in some EU countries, including Italy, but are readily available in UK.

Again I'm not making a specific recommendation, just circulating another option; but If anyone does fit these, it is important to have the angled lines pointing down to the centre of the road:

 

 

As I said in the first post, I've been using additional lights/reflective tape for some time as the risk of rear impact on any high speed road is significant.

I've tried LED cycle lights, and I know of several IMPS members who use them; in one case for the last seven years..................without any issue from the Police that I have heard of.

But despite what some might say, I don't have the perogative on possible options to improve rear visibility .....so please keep them coming!

 

Thanks,

John

[Toner]

When driving, I often have a hi viz vest either on the back shelf or where it could be seen from the rear.

 

There are a few other ideas, such as the reflective tape and the trailer board (suitably modified for your vehicle) that could work.

 

(My old cars would usually have a strip of red reflective tape on the boot it did seem to help)

 

Sadly there is also the case of driver awareness to take into account. It doesn't matter how well marked up you are, if the other driver is not paying attention, it won't work.

 

All we can do is try the best we can and hope it's good enough.

 

(I don't think this is the place to go into driver awareness training, C.O.A.S.T etc etc)

[daz76]

Sadly some drivers drive whilst too tired or distracted. How many times do you see cars driving right up to the back of a wagon and then pulling out to avoid it. It's like they haven't seen it until the last second. I really think some car drivers don't look any further than the end of the bonnet. There's not much to be done about this.

I drive regularly overnight and have witnessed 3 accidents in the last 2 years through drivers falling asleep at the wheel. 1 was a young mum on the A303 who clipped the curb and went backwards down the bank. The other 2 were caravanners who had left the north of england on a friday night after work and by the time they get almost to cornwall at 2 in the morning they are a danger to everyone, themselves included. Common sense seems lacking, but we've all driven tired I imagine...

[younggun]

just thort i would add my bit to this as i many people know whether its work of play most of my time driveing is spent going extreamly slowly

 

its all well and an a extreamley gd idea to have your mv higly visable from the rear if your going to plod up and down the moterway at a slow speed but just because u think you have made your vehical HIGH VIZ dont think you are compleatly SAFE

 

most of the near miss situations i have had when i have been out escorting slow loads are caused by drivers ingnorance . time and time i again drivers in cars and more so trucks leavt till there 30 ft from the back doors of my van to evan think about pulling out to pass evan tho i have been in plain view for the last 500 yards there just to big headed to slow down. and when there doing 56 mph and i am doing 10 mph 30 ft soon disapears . but they all ways make it out just in time to miss me . but what about the next vehical behind the one that just passed they are now left with less than 30 ft to react slow down and pass and this is when you are most likely to get hit in the rear and unless peoples attidude changes u will never cure this problem .

 

the only thing i can say is that watch your rear view mirros like a hawk and if your vehical dosent have very gd mirrors get some fitted . if travelling in a group dont tail gate or u if u do get hit you will just get pushed into the rear of the vehical infront of u . travelling in a small groupe of 3 or 4 is safer as u will find that the flow of traffic will slow down just to have a look at whats goingon . some people mite think this is more dangerous but from my view its allways beeen safer for the person at the back .

 

nick

 

just beat me too it daz

Edited July 6, 2011 by younggun
daz beat me

[private mw]

i was once driving up the M1 jnct 30 on nights driving artic tanker carrying effluent about 11pm start climbing the incline when i felt the lorry move forward i thought it was the liquid moving around in tank till i got to my destination and noticed rear crash rail tucked under lorry wouldnt like to see the front of the car which run into me ! :shocked:

[ArtistsRifles]

This business was a lesson learnt the hard way many years ago in the early 1970's. I was #3 in a convoy of 5 Militant's running through Salisbury plain around midnight - vehicles were lit as for normal running (head side and tail). Sometime into the trip the #2 vehicle suddenly lurched to one side and the rear end bucked alarmingly. After stopping the convoy abruptly we found an MG Midget had - literally - tried to undertake the militant by driving under it at 90 deg. Messy.

Everyone was badly shaken, none more so than the troop Sgt who was a HGV fitter by trade. Next time out the vehicles were festooned with removable reflective markers along the sides and rears. Didn't sit too well with the officers at first - till they were shown the colour photos of the aftermath.

[Marmite!!]

Some people just don't look.. had flashing beacon & headlights on.. she said she didn't see me.. the Police car behind her did :cool2:

[gazzaw]

After some maniac drivers almost running into back of me I fitted the large MVPA warning triangle (off MVPA website shop)with a flashing LED (now upgraded to 2 small square ones) as shown in picture. One of the incidents was a fast driver trying to overtake then cutting between me and wrecker in front along hard shoulder and back out almost wiping out a mini that was overtaking legally at the time - see it here, apologies for poor quality but in open jeep filming at time. The waving flags help as well for people to notice.

 

The other main hazard is all the drivers who try to pass you when taking photos on their phone/camera etc

 

 

 

 

 

gary

Edited July 7, 2011 by gazzaw

[croc]

This highlights the real problem, whatever we do in the interests of safety. A prat who drives like that, will allways drive like a prat. It had nothing to do with you being slow.

[cordenj]

Interesting post Gary......and the YouTube clip shows what we are dealing with (whether in MVs or in modern cars).

 

I'd seen the MVPA triangle in their magazine.

For anyone who is interested in ordering one, it can be found at this link:

 

https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/shopping/shopping.aspx?pager=4&site=mvpa&prd_key=d0937b28-7830-488c-b7a2-029e97977397

 

I must say I'd thought it might be too small, but it looks good on the back of your Jeep.

 

Thanks

John

[Tony B]

I think I may have found the answer to the front width problem. Went into my local suppliers Robin Hood and they had two lenghts of 24 LEDs. They are 240mm long and on a flexible light back. Cost £6.00 each. The next is to experiment how to mount them.

 

First idea is that I have some magnetic mount sign paper. I use it to mount Div signs on. The LEDS are light enough that would glue on easily. Either in a straight line or possibly to bend into a circle.

 

The other way may be vertical on a stick?

They are extremly bright for there size. There are also red strips that may well be an addition to the back. They are discret enough that they would mount below the back line of the vehicle . I'll try some experiments.

[daz76]

I think I may have found the answer to the front width problem. Went into my local suppliers Robin Hood and they had two lenghts of 24 LEDs. They are 240mm long and on a flexible light back. Cost £6.00 each. The next is to experiment how to mount them.

 

First idea is that I have some magnetic mount sign paper. I use it to mount Div signs on. The LEDS are light enough that would glue on easily. Either in a straight line or possibly to bend into a circle.

 

The other way may be vertical on a stick?

They are extremly bright for there size. There are also red strips that may well be an addition to the back. They are discret enough that they would mount below the back line of the vehicle . I'll try some experiments.

 

Good find Tony. Are these battery powered or hard wired to the vehicle?

[mike65]

I think I may have found the answer to the front width problem. Went into my local suppliers Robin Hood and they had two lenghts of 24 LEDs. They are 240mm long and on a flexible light back. Cost £6.00 each. The next is to experiment how to mount them.

 

First idea is that I have some magnetic mount sign paper. I use it to mount Div signs on. The LEDS are light enough that would glue on easily. Either in a straight line or possibly to bend into a circle.

 

The other way may be vertical on a stick?

They are extremly bright for there size. There are also red strips that may well be an addition to the back. They are discret enough that they would mount below the back line of the vehicle . I'll try some experiments.

 

Vertical on a stick could be a good way of mounting them, especially if you have convoy flag holders fitted.

If not you could possibly fit some and they could still be in keeping with the vehicle.

 

Mike

[antarmike]

The thread got split by the Mods this afternoon, Only just noticed it and now there is a separate "Highway speed Limit" thread. However this part of one of my posts got moved at the same time and really I think it should be here because it covers why I think this issue is so difficult to solve, so I am pasting it back in..,. I hope the Mods don't mind

 

If I have been a little flippant I am sorry, but my experience after 30 years of moving slow vehicles to shows is in reality there is virtually nothing that has any real effect, and these accidents will always happen.

 

Research suggests that something close on 95% of all motorists have "micro-sleeps" were for a second or two up to periods nearer 30 seconds they fall asleep while driving. Often they are completely unaware that it happens to them. We are not talking about occasionally, with some people there are several of these events on each and every journey. You do not have to feel tired or exhausted to experience a micro-sleep.

.......Humans are not adapted to driving and we are not very good at it. Accidents will continue to happen.

 

http://www.sleepdex.org/microsleep.htm

http://atigo.com/microsleep.htm

 

Or as I said she could have been mid Micro-sleep. Airline pilots in Micro-sleep do not respond to flashing warning lights on their instrument panel. You can't expect any better from a car driver......

Edited July 7, 2011 by antarmike

[rambo1969]

What you really need is a light that flashes.

I remember watching a documentry years ago about road saftey, there was a guy who had done loads of research and he worked out that people on motorways/fast A roads get some sort of "fixed vision".

They see the vehcile in front and fix on it, but they just don't realise how slow it's going or indeed if it's stopped.

It happenend alot of a night time when a vehcile had been in an accident and was stationery, the driver comming up behind is so fixed on the lights he has not noticed it has stopped.

 

The guy worked out that once hazard lights and/or flashing ambers are switched on, the driver behind notices the vehcile very quickly.

He campained for hazard lights to come on automatically in the event of an accident.

If you are going to fit flashing led's, buy good ones.

[Tony B]

Daz, Mike, the units are strips that you hard wire in. I'm now wondering if they can be fitted just under the front rim of the mudgaurd and wired to the sidelights. I won't get a chance to play about till Saturday afternoon. I'll ask my guy where he gets them from. Rambo, some years ago I was part of a series of experiments on reflictive kit for horses. We found the most effective were reflective bands attached around the lower offside legs of the horse. As you say not because they were the biggest, but because they MOVED! Incedentally it was also found the colour of Hi Vis gear mattered, against green backgrounds yellow had a hbit of blending in, orange was the best, but on dark bagrounds yellow stood out. Hence the recomendation for mixed colours. Red reflective tape was also far more effective than silver.

[antarmike]

 

gary

 

 

This Utube shows as you say a problem, but, and please don't all shout me down, How often is running in convoy causing a problem?

 

I have experienced motorists who get stuck behind a slow vehicle at the back of the convoy, and their focus becomes "How do I get past this guy?" They are so focussed they do not see other vehicles ahead, and when the opportunity presents itself, they accelerate past the Tail end Charlie, in a mad overtaking manoeuvre. expecting a clear road, and when they pull in to complete the overtaking they are very fast and only then notice the next in convoy......

 

If we want to make ourselves safer should we stop travelling in Convoys?

[Tony B]

I was told always allow room for the impatient ****** to get bettween you. (Then ram the **** was added:-D )

[gazzaw]

Interesting post Gary......and the YouTube clip shows what we are dealing with (whether in MVs or in modern cars).

 

I'd seen the MVPA triangle in their magazine.

For anyone who is interested in ordering one, it can be found at this link:

 

https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/shopping/shopping.aspx?pager=4&site=mvpa&prd_key=d0937b28-7830-488c-b7a2-029e97977397

 

I must say I'd thought it might be too small, but it looks good on the back of your Jeep.

 

Thanks

John

 

Thanks John

 

They also do convoy signs as well for the rear vehicles that are quite big and noticeable etc

 

Gary

[Markheliops]

I have fitted two aftermarket stop / tail and indicator lights to the back of the Ward as the original lights were fitted leaving 2 ft of truck body either side.

 

I use two rotating flashing beacons when towing the Brockhouse (1 on the cab and one on the rear of the trailer) when moving through small built up areas of country lanes.

 

I have found the best preventative measure I can take is to travel on major routes in daylight and during busy periods.

 

All the lights and reflective tape in the world will not stop some muppet ploughing into the rear of you when he / she isn't looking where they are going or paying attention to what's in front of them.

 

In busy periods, lorries moving from the inside lane to the over-taking lane and back again ensure traffic slows down. It generally tells other drivers something is causing an obstruction or a slow moving vehicle is ahead - with the result that they tend to come out of their trance and switch on their senses.

 

With little or no traffic on a fast moving road (ie night-time) drivers of all vehicles, not just lorry drivers, tend to go on to auto pilot mode resultinig in tragic consequences.

 

Markheliops

[willysmb]

Gary, Re you You tube Clip ..That NUTTER was doing 25 + mph faster that the vehicles over taking you :-X..

 

The shame is that they will Kill someone in an Accident and probably walk away scratch free ...

 

I'd Like to say they are the exeption to the rule ......But I do to many miles per year so see this type of driving too

 

often. IMHO to many drivers drive are waching no further than the edge of their Bonnets

 

Whilst it is impossible to to make our vehicles totaly safe and Visable to all other road users for the sake of a few quid

 

Im prepared to try and help other road user Notice me and the Jeep ..

 

I like the Marker Board and Flashing LED's on the back of the Jeep spare wheel (a page or so back) ..

 

Im also going to clip on a couple of those cheap Bike lights that flash onto the Jeep Canvas Hood ..

 

If I meet the " Youtube" driver I hope that Im in the GMC 353 ..

 

Some good ideas comming through...

 

ken

[gazzaw]

Yep totally agree, and not clear but the poor mini driver as it pulled back in front of the wrecker had to pull out sharp while the clown went from hard shoulder to same lane. I have slowed this down and blown up frames to try and get the number plate but it is too pixelated -need CSI to look at it I think lol.

 

All the other cars in the stream passing us were travelling sensibly but this guy came up far too fast and luckily (??) had a space to go into and not hit the rear end of the car to my right, that coupled with impatience cause accidents where they get off and someone else pays for it with their lives.

 

If I had their number it would have been passed onto police and not youtube

 

Gary

[Lewis Garner]

As has been faintly mentioned before people's brains turn to jelly when they see an unusual vehicle on the roads. So many times when crossing roundabouts or even driving down main roads in the Spartan have we seen people 'slow down for a look', their attention isn't focused on the road or what they're doing at all. On small country roads it only seems responsible to pull over once in a while and let the traffic past, it is amazing what people will chance to get past a slow moving vehicle.

[GlenAnderson]

Way back in the mists of time, when I was a kid, I can remember a car journey with my mother driving where she got quite agitated and upset at being tailgated on a fast bit of A-road. I'll always remember my dad's advice...He said "The bloke behind you can only have got there one way - he's caught you up. If you don't want to go faster, just look for somewhere to let him past".

 

When I used to go out with him he always had one eye on the mirror looking out for what was coming up from behind. In a lorry he'd always be aware of a queue building up and would let people past when it got too big. It's something I do as a matter of course as a result. I've always found, when driving something slow, if you let people past when you can you often get an acknowledging wave or toot on the horn as they go by - in contrast to some of my colleagues who'd seem oblivious to the huge queues building behind them who get long angry horn blasts, really desperate overtaking manoeuvres and hand gestures involving one or two raised digits.

 

I think that any steps taken to improve visibility can only be of benefit, but it's also worth pointing out that defensive driving is more than just lighting yourself up like a Christmas tree - you have to be really aware of what's going on around you. A weather-eye on the rear view mirror for someone approaching at high speed might give you a chance to take your own avoiding action - a flash of the hazards or a swerve of your own onto the hard shoulder...

 

On a separate note, a poster above mentioned the relative visibility of different colours of high-viz. On the railway we use orange, with retro-reflective Scotchlite strips. In daylight you can see the orange from over a mile away, where yellow blends in much more. At night it's the Scotchlite you see, way before anything else.

 

All the best, Glen.

Edited July 7, 2011 by GlenAnderson
iphone made it all one paragraph...

[Big ray]

Way back in the mists of time, when I was a kid, I can remember a car journey with my mother driving where she got quite agitated and upset at being tailgated on a fast bit of A-road. I'll always remember my dad's advice...He said "The bloke behind you can only have got there one way - he's caught you up. If you don't want to go faster, just look for somewhere to let him past".

 

When I used to go out with him he always had one eye on the mirror looking out for what was coming up from behind. In a lorry he'd always be aware of a queue building up and would let people past when it got too big. It's something I do as a matter of course as a result. I've always found, when driving something slow, if you let people past when you can you often get an acknowledging wave or toot on the horn as they go by - in contrast to some of my colleagues who'd seem oblivious to the huge queues building behind them who get long angry horn blasts, really desperate overtaking manoeuvres and hand gestures involving one or two raised digits.

 

I think that any steps taken to improve visibility can only be of benefit, but it's also worth pointing out that defensive driving is more than just lighting yourself up like a Christmas tree - you have to be really aware of what's going on around you. A weather-eye on the rear view mirror for someone approaching at high speed might give you a chance to take your own avoiding action - a flash of the hazards or a swerve of your own onto the hard shoulder...

 

On a separate note, a poster above mentioned the relative visibility of different colours of high-viz. On the railway we use orange, with retro-reflective Scotchlite strips. In daylight you can see the orange from over a mile away, where yellow blends in much more. At night it's the Scotchlite you see, way before anything else.

 

All the best, Glen.

Correct, absolutely nothing to be gained by alienatinig ourselves with joe public, it has always been my policy to pull over into a lay-by if nesessary to let built-up traffic to pass. No point really in holding them up, they will only become a problem further into your journey by taking undue risks to pass you.