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432 road legal????


Firetrucker

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Hi

 

JUst received this post off Big Ray.........

 

 

"My understanding is that the 432s are not road legal, any that have been registered have been done in error, it would appear that they are too wide for U.K. roads, and the secondary breaking system does not comply....... just a thought before you part with your hard earned cash."

 

 

Surely this is rubbish?? please enlighten me?

 

Adrian

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Adrian,

 

This is a can of worms that has been well thrashed to death by others over the last year at least on here.

 

In short form the answer is no it would appear but some are and some have failed.

 

I think someone else may link to the original thread, pull up a chair and get some sandwiches in as you are in for a long and opinionated read!

 

R

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Short answer is if you buy one not already road registered, it seems very unlikely you will get it past the authorities without telling some fibs.

If you buy one already road registered, keep you head down and keep quiet, your in the lucky postion of being able to use it on the road for the time being at least. Whether it's fully legal and can be kept and used on the road without legal and insurance implications is another matter.

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This is the full text of a two way question and answer with dept Of Transport.

I have a response from Department of Transport regarding a query I sent them about FV432.

I have copied that response and my original query to them

 

Quote"

Dear Mike

Thank you for your email to TTS ENQUIRIES concerning operating the GKN FV432 series of Tracked Armoured Personnel Carriers on British Roads.

For any vehicle to be used on the public roads in Great Britain, it must comply with insurance, licensing (tax) and registration requirements. It must also comply with applicable construction regulations. Primarily these are the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (as amended) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (as amended). Certain special vehicles that are unable to comply with the full requirements of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (C&U) are however permitted to use public roads under the Road Vehicles (Authorisation of Special Types) (General) Order 2003 (STGO). I am afraid that from the information supplied, the vehicle in question exceeds the maximum vehicle width requirements of regulation 8 of C&U and also, there is no special vehicle category in the STGO that would permit the use of the vehicle you describe.

 

Given that the vehicle in question exceeds the width restrictions imposed by C&U, and does not fit within one of the recognised vehicle categories within the STGO, it would not be legal to use the vehicle in question on public roads in GB for the purpose you describe. It may be that some of these vehicles have been registered but the fact that they are registered does not in itself provide an exemption from the requirements of the C&U regulations.

 

I hope this information is helpful but it should be treated solely as advice given that in this country it is only the Courts that can interpret the law authoritatively.

Yours sincerely

 

Mary Kissane

 

Department for Transport

 

Transport Technology and Standards Division

 

 

From: antarmike@aol.com [mailto:antarmike@aol.com]

Sent: 21 June 2010 13:51

To: TTS ENQUIRIES

Subject: Legality of operating the GKN FV432 series of Tracked Armoured Personnel Carriers on British Roads

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I am currently concidering buying an FV439 tracked armoured personnel carrier (APC).(one of the FV432 series of vehicles)

It will come by way of a dealer appointed by the government to adminster the sale of ex Army vehicles.

They assure me that it can be road registered and it is legal to use it on the road. However I have a lot of people saying it is to wide to use on the road.

Its width is 2.819m, its weight unladen is 13.74 Tonnes, and its weight laden is 15.28 tonnes .

People are telling me that the maximum width allowed under construction and Use regs is 2.55M wide. unless it is a locomotive (which can be 2.75m wide) or a refrigerated vehicle (which can be 2.6m Wide.)

The FV432 tracked APC does not seem to fit Construction and Use Regs so I have looked at road vehicles(authorisation of special types)(general) orders.

People have suggested it might fit into one of a number of categories but I cannot see this.

They have suggested it might fit the follwing special types vehicles, but I have thought about this and written against each why I don't think it fits that class.

As I understand it there are 17 categories within Special types, but not all categories allow width over the 2.55m allowed in C and U regs.

 

Of those that do various people have suggested that FV432 series might fit into the following classes

 

"Abnormal Indivisible Load vehicles."

I thought the the vehicle has to be designed to carry a load that, because of its width, length, height or weight, cannot be carried by a vehicle complying fully with C and U regs, and which cannot economically, or through risk of damage be broken down into smaller loads that can be carried on a CandU compliant vehicle.

 

As I see it this rules out FV439 being in this class.

 

"Engineering plant" has as I understand it to be specially designed and constructed for the purpose of engineering operations which could not be carried out by a vehicle complying fully with C and U regs and goods vehicle type approval regs.

 

The vehicle must not be constructed to carry any load apart from that allowed. namely its own nescessary gear and equipment, nor can it carry any other goods or burden except materials that have been excavated by the plant or goods that it is designed to process on the plant.

 

FV439 does not comply with this definition, but it does carry two electrical generators. Do these class as engineering plant? (they are however small enough to be carried on a vehicle fully complying with C and U rags..

 

"Special types road recovery vehicle" these I understand have to be specially designed and constructed for the recovery of disabled road vehicles, or be permanently adapted for this purpose. They must be fitted with a crane , winch or other lifting system especially designed for recovering another vehicle. (FV432 isn't)

They cannot be used for any other purpose than recovery, or taking a broken down vehicle to a place of repair. They must be registered recovery and hold a Recovery VED. They must also be wheeled vehicles.

 

Fv439 cannot comply with this.

 

"Wide agricultural vehicle" These I understand have to be a motor vehicle, that is constructed or adapted for use off-road for the purposes of Agriculture, horticulture or Forestry and which is PRIMARILY USED for one of these purposes.

 

It is possible if a Fv432 series belongs to a farmer and it is used mostly, off-road in connection with with Agricultural business, then possibly it might fit into this category, but as such the on road use has got to be the minor part of its use, and Off-road use on a farm, directly doing agricultural work has to be the primary use. The FV439 I wish to buy will not be used in this way.

 

"wide track laying vehicles" this sounds promising to me but then I read that they may only be used for demonstration, proceding to the nearest railway station for conveyance to a port for shipment, or if railway facilities do not exist it may be driven to the nearest port for shipment.

 

So can't see the restrictions on use mean I can use one as a "wide track laying vehicle" class vehicle within STGO.

 

"Operational Military Vehicle" I understand the secretary of State can for operational reasons certify a vehicle as incapable of meeting C and U regs. and therefore exempt it from C andU width limits.

But as I understand it the vehicle must be the property of or under the control of the secretaty of state or of a procurement contractor or sub-contrctor who has obtained the Secretary of States permission for use on the road.

Ie if it belonged to the army, it would fit this class and could be used by virtue of the certificate of exemption issued by the Secretary of State. This exemption is not available to privately owned, ex military vehicles

I have e-mailed Witham Specialist vehicles who are seeling me the vehicle as capable of being road registered and lawful to drive on the road if I hold the correct licence, and asked them what I should say to a Traffic officer or a VOSA official if I am asked why I am driving a vehicle 2.819m wide if the width limit under C and U regs is 2.55m wide and the vehicle and my use doesn't match an STGO category.

They merely said the vehicle was legal for use on the road. I contacted them a second time, asking if I were stopped by a Traffic Officer, or a Vosa Representative, what I should say to them, if they asked me why I was using a vehicle of this width on the road. Which legislation should I quote to show that this vehicle is allowed on the road at a width of 2.816m. They have so far not got back in touch with me.

I would value your decision as to the legality of driving this tracked vehicle on the road. Can you point me to the relevant authorisation either within C and U or Special Types, general orders that allows its use? Is there some other route by which this vehicles gains legitamacy to be used on the road.?

My intended use is Social, Domestic and Pleasure, taking the vehicle to a few Military vehicle shows, steam rallies, vintage vehicle events and the like. The vehicle was built circa 1971. I suppose that when at shows it is being shown in some form of educational role. However I would also like to take it to the supermarket on occasions, just for fun.

Should I carry on with the purchase of this vehicle, Can it be road registered? and is it lawful to drive on the road?

What legislation allows it to exceed the 2.55m wide limit it seems to me C and U regs apply to most vehicles.

If I bought one from elsewhere and found one of the many that have been already road registered, does the fact thta DVLA have permitted it to be road registered actually mean it is therefore legal to drive on the road?

 

Thanks MIke

" unquote

 

This is the Dept. of Transports view as to the width Issue. I have not raised the question of Secondary braking with them.

Edited by antarmike
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Thanks Mike.

Plenty to chew over. Obviously this has been dicussed before....sorry to drag it up again.

 

Surely if the Gov have allowed them on the road for the past X years this has set a presidence in law? And the fact that they issue a tax disc is saying YES you can use this vehicle for road use.

 

Wonder what would happen if you had an accident and some !?*&$£ copper measured the vehicle?

 

If registered as a farm vehicle can you run on red diesel?

 

I intend to buy one early next year most probably ex Withams. Question is can i register it for road use?

 

mmmmm i think more sandwiches required Robin!!!

Adrian

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Thanks Mike.

Plenty to chew over. Obviously this has been dicussed before....sorry to drag it up again.

 

Surely if the Gov have allowed them on the road for the past X years this has set a presidence in law? And the fact that they issue a tax disc is saying YES you can use this vehicle for road use.

 

Wonder what would happen if you had an accident and some !?*&$£ copper measured the vehicle?

 

If registered as a farm vehicle can you run on red diesel?

 

I intend to buy one early next year most probably ex Withams. Question is can i register it for road use?

 

mmmmm i think more sandwiches required Robin!!!

Adrian

At the end of the day it is up to you, there is enough information on the forum to make an informed decision. But beware it might end badly if a court decision is made. As far as registering as a farm vehicle is concerned, this also is covered in detail in past threads, basically it would have to be used exclusively for agricultural or forestry porposes and the penalties for misuse of red diesel are not worth it, as I have said before it is a very obviouse and dangerouse(to your pocket) dodge.

Having said that I have had them on the road privately in the past and enjoyed it!:drive:

Iain

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Just because a vehicle is registered or has a tax disc issued to it doesn't mean its legal, it is still up to the owner to make sure their vehicle complies with the law and ignorance is not an excuse.

 

Incidently I own a road legal 432, and am increasingly coming to the opinion that while great fun, the more and more I learn about the law thats its not worth the risk of taking it out on public roads (esp as most people don't seem to have a clue how to drive). But maybe thats just me.. A lot of these vehicles have been released and sooner or later someone is going to have a serious accident in one and while you could sit there til the cows come home saying 'oh it'll never happen to me...' I feel very sorry for the person that it might happen to because once VOSA/the police start having a closer look at these vehicles particularly regarding width and steering/braking systems then if someone gets killed you're not just going to be looking at a points and a fine.

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I am very inclined to agree.

I used to have a haulage company and one of our vehicles was involved in a serious accident in warrington.

Belive me when the police and VOSA get their teeth into something they are like rottweilers. Every single nut and bolt of the vehicle was scrutinised not including days of trawling through our maintenance records etc.

Luckly it was the drivers fault.....he fell asleep at the wheel.

The truck in question was an imported Freightliner articulated unit which rang alarm bells with the inspectors, they tried all ways to find fault with the vehicle. One thing, at least, helped was that it had a new MOT from the testing station to prove roadworthyness and full maintenace schedules.

 

Heaven forbid if somebody does have an accident with one of these vehicles they will have the book thrown at them.

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If registered as a farm vehicle can you run on red diesel?

 

There is no need to run one on red diesel, with the multifuel engine they can run on contaminated (water/diesel mix) from recovery companies. We have owned 2 FV432s, one of them I registered for the road and did drive it on the road. I did not enjoy the experience, the width is an issue as is the drivers hatch sticking up in the air preventing you from seeing to the left. The thing I dislike most is that you have to steer and stop with the same levers. Pull them both back to stop. If they are not correctly adjusted, or you pull one back further than the other it will not stop straight. They are great fun off road though, and with free fuel you can play all day, or untill the tracks fall off.

 

If you want something a bit more road friendly then a CVR(T) is the way to go. They are more expensive, but with good reason. Compared to an FV432 they are tiny, but vision, manouverabilty and handling is far better than a FV432.

 

Chris

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Thanks Mike.

Surely if the Gov have allowed them on the road for the past X years this has set a presidence in law? And the fact that they issue a tax disc is saying YES you can use this vehicle for road use.

Adrian

 

To which Dept Of Transport said " It may be that some of these vehicles have been registered but the fact that they are registered does not in itself provide an exemption from the requirements of the C&U regulations. "

 

The point being there is the legal responsibility for the registered keeper to ensure the vehicle complies with C and U. If he permits a vehicle to be used which does not comply, then he commits an offence.

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Just because a vehicle is registered or has a tax disc issued to it doesn't mean its legal, it is still up to the owner to make sure their vehicle complies with the law and ignorance is not an excuse.

 

Incidently I own a road legal 432, and am increasingly coming to the opinion that while great fun, the more and more I learn about the law thats its not worth the risk of taking it out on public roads (esp as most people don't seem to have a clue how to drive). But maybe thats just me.. A lot of these vehicles have been released and sooner or later someone is going to have a serious accident in one and while you could sit there til the cows come home saying 'oh it'll never happen to me...' I feel very sorry for the person that it might happen to because once VOSA/the police start having a closer look at these vehicles particularly regarding width and steering/braking systems then if someone gets killed you're not just going to be looking at a points and a fine.

You say you own a road legal FV432. Can you explain how you brakes have been re=worked to provide a secondary service brake system that complies with braking regulations? Other might want to modify their 432 in a similar way. The general feeling so far when this has been discussed is "Bulldog" is legal, but old style 432 is not, and would be hard to modify.

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Thanks Mike.

 

I intend to buy one early next year most probably ex Withams. Question is can i register it for road use?

 

mmmmm i think more sandwiches required Robin!!!

Adrian

 

This is the response I got from Witham's regarding why they advertised their FV432's as being road legal when they are actually overwidth and the brakes do not comply with regulations. AS far as I know this is still Witham's current standpoint.

 

 

Quote email"

 

 

 

Good Morning Mike,

 

Thank you for the e-mail.

 

That answers the question.

 

I would not advise a customer to use a (432-9) on the Public roads.

 

Customers who I have sold to in the past do have their own Land or ground to use the vehicle on.

 

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require further information or to make an appointment.Our opening hours are 08.30 am to 17.30 pm weekdays,Sat morning 8.30 am to 04.00 pm

 

Best Regards

Graham Hodson

Senior Sales

Tel:+44(0)1476861361

Fax:+44(0)1476861441

Mobile:+44(0)7955260102

Email: graham.hodson@mod-sales.com

Website: http://www.mod-sales.com

"Unquote

 

Witham's have ceased to say in their adverts that the FV432 is road legal and can be road registered.

Edited by antarmike
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You say you own a road legal FV432. Can you explain how you brakes have been re=worked to provide a secondary service brake system that complies with braking regulations? Other might want to modify their 432 in a similar way. The general feeling so far when this has been discussed is "Bulldog" is legal, but old style 432 is not, and would be hard to modify.

 

What I meant to say was registered, not road legal. Apologies for the confusion, was typing fast and obviously not choosing my words properly. As said, having read previous discussions on here and other research I have come to the conclusion its not worth the risk using the vehicle on public roads.

 

There are lots of potential scenarios, ignoring other road users being the cause of any collisions, the consequences of throwing a track in a crowded street for example aren't worth thinking about. Let alone having the drive couplings between the final drives and steering box fail.. as the manual says: ALL STEERING AND BRAKING WILL BE LOST! Imagine that as your approaching a downhill busy junction.. These days there is no such thing as an accident anymore.. if someone gets hurts, VOSA will not release their grip once they've sunk their teeth in.

 

As much as it pains me to admit, I think CVRT's are the only modern tracked armour capable of being made legal and even then I believe some versions need lighting mods.. While running MV's on the road is fun, is it really worth going to prison for?

 

James

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Why does the 432 have to comply with todays licensing laws? Shouldn't they have to comply with the laws as they stood when the vehicles were built?

 

There is only one version of construction and use regulations as ammended. All vehicles have to comply with these C and U or STGO regs.

 

If, because of a vehicles age, there are allowances in the standards of construction or the dimension of that particuilar vehicles etc, those exemptions are incorporated into current C and U regs with a stated date of manufacture or first use of the vehicle to which that exemption applies .

 

There are no such provisions for 432 since it has always failed to meet brake requirements and width requirements.

 

Whenever a new version of legislation is enacted, previous versions are repealed.

 

If 432 had to comply with legislation current when it was made then it would have to comply with a width limit of 2.5m

 

Newer version of C and U now allows vehicles up to width limit of 2.55m.

 

432 never complied with original width limit. It was always to wide for civilian usage. Now, it is nearer complying than it was under old width rules, but still not near enough to comply.

 

 

An operated Military vehicle (ie owned and run by the government/ Army) built and operated at the time 432 went into service was exempted complying with C and U regs.

 

The secretary of state issues a exemption to the effect that "due to operational requirements" the vehicles performance and usefulness would be compromised if it had to comply with C and C regs. 432 never had to comply with any regulations, it was never designed to comply, and the Army knew full well that it didn't comply, but because Army operated vehicles did not have to comply meant they could design it however they liked, and still use it on the road quite legally.

 

Civilian owned ex Military vehicles are not covered by this exemption, nor indeed has the Secretary of State got the legal power to grant exemption for a civilian owned vehicle. All Civilian owned vehicles have to comply with current C and U regs.

 

The Army could legally run FV432 on the road with the full knowledge of every authority that it did not meet C and U regs.

 

We can not do this.

 

You use the word licensing, In army usage the vehicle isn't actually licensed. They do not have a DVLA registration mark, No road fund VED is paid.

 

You cannot equate military use of 432 on the road, where they are used unregistered and untaxed because they are Crown Property, with "licensed use" by a civilian. A civilian can only register a vehicle in a particular taxation class if the vehicle definition is suitable for that Taxation class, and if the usage of the vehicle complies with any restrictions of use imposed by a particular taxation class.

 

You are taking a non compliant vehicle that has never been road registered, and trying to register it under a civilian scheme. Forget the past, you have to look at the present to see whether it is legal to introduce this vehicle onto the road, as a civilian registered, C and U compliant vehicle. This I do not believe can be done legally.

Edited by antarmike
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So are we all in agreement there is no way you can use an over width vehicle for pleasure or private use then on public roads and i have brought this up before including Foden Drops and stalwarts

Edited by cosrec
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So are we all in agreement there is no way you can use an over width vehicle for pleasure or private use then on public roads

 

Not necessarily, overwidth vehicles that comply with STGO regs and are used according to those regs can be used on the road.

 

A vehicle that complies with the C and U regulations definition of "locomotive" can run at 2.75m Wide.

 

I believe a Locomotive can be used for pleasure.

 

The law on AILV's is not so easy to interpret and is definitely a grey area. That is one major consideration in selling my Mighty Antar. It was getting harder and harder to justify its use for merely attending local shows. It may have been legal to go to GDSF on the road, since I was making the journey in order to move an abnormal indivisible load when I got there .....

 

There are a whole list of very questionable ex military vehicles (both armoured and soft skinned) that are overwidth that are used on the road, which I feel should not be there.........

 

I have mentioned those before and do not feel I need to go through the list again, but I will communicate via PM with anyone who wants my views on particular wide vehicles.....( both wheeled and tracked)

 

Forum Warning, read and note

 

If any reader wants to keep info from this thread, they should copy and paste it somewhere else now, it probably won't be around for long!

 

Mods, this Topic also discusses braking requirements, and that is important, and not covered by the Forum ban on discussing over width vehicles. Please if you are going to "tidy" this thread, please do it in a way that preserves the comments and queries and responses relating to FV432 Brakes and braking requirements. Braking standards is a valid discussion, and comments made directly highlight problems with 432 brakes that indicate why they do not comply and why they should not be used on the road.

 

Personally I think it is time for you to reconsider the original ban ( the post were said to be have been "temporarily removed" ) how long is temporarily?, that was over a year ago and they still haven't been re-instated........,

Thanks Mike

Edited by antarmike
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Antar mike i think you are correct in that vehicles built under STGO reg s can be taxed and used for private as they obviously were for that use. What iam getting at is other vehicles that were built for crown use but have been regesister using spurious means while never been intended for use under STGO regs been driven on public roads

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Antar mike i think you are correct in that vehicles built under STGO reg s can be taxed and used for private as they obviously were for that use. What iam getting at is other vehicles that were built for crown use but have been regesister using spurious means while never been intended for use under STGO regs been driven on public roads

 

Actual wide vehicles of military origin being used legally on the roads of the UK, can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand...( well the one group that might contain wide Military vehicles being used legally is Recovery vehicles, registered as such and used only for recovery, (they raise the count slightly))

 

There are many other vehicles that are not legal, even though registered and taxed.....

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:-( Crumbs wish i never asked.

 

If anybody can give me a simple answer [before i buy one] in one sentence pm me please.

 

Adrian

PM sent.

 

The information you were given at the start is an accurate statement of the facts.

 

"My understanding is that the 432s are not road legal, any that have been registered have been done in error, it would appear that they are too wide for U.K. roads, and the secondary braking system does not comply....... just a thought before you part with your hard earned cash."

 

You would do well to heed it.

Edited by antarmike
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:-( Crumbs wish i never asked.

 

If anybody can give me a simple answer [before i buy one] in one sentence pm me please.

 

Adrian

 

I would say say you could buy one regesteir it (although DVLA semed to have cottoned on) but not legally drive it on the road for pleasure.

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:-( Crumbs wish i never asked.

 

If anybody can give me a simple answer [before i buy one] in one sentence pm me please.

 

Adrian

 

From Dept Of Transport's e-mail to me.

 

"it would not be legal to use the vehicle in question on public roads in GB"

 

Says it in one sentence doesn't it.

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