Enfield1940 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi, I have an OG P1960 smock and a P1968 smock - both made by James Smith & Co of Derby. Borrowing the pictures on the excellent 'forces80' website, the P1960 smock has the following style of label: http://www.forces80.com/images/60pattlaba2.jpg And the P1968 smock has this style of label: http://www.forces80.com/images/labelsmock68pattern.jpg Can I therefore assume that the P1960 smock is a late one and the P1968 smock is an early one, or is it more complicated than that? Thanks, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi, I have an OG P1960 smock and a P1968 smock - both made by James Smith & Co of Derby. Borrowing the pictures on the excellent 'forces80' website, the P1960 smock has the following style of label: http://www.forces80.com/images/60pattlaba2.jpg And the P1968 smock has this style of label: http://www.forces80.com/images/labelsmock68pattern.jpg Can I therefore assume that the P1960 smock is a late one and the P1968 smock is an early one, or is it more complicated than that? Thanks, Mark[/QUO James Smith & Co were a pretty big company and made all sorts of British combat clothing from roughly the mid-1960's until the late 1970's......I have an article somewhere written by the former director describing the company going out of business and the skilled workforce being made redundant......they were perhaps the largest manufacturer of British combat clothing and had several factories, including Derby, Rhymney and Staveley......I can't remember at this point without looking up, but I think they may have been a subsidiary company of Cookson & Clegg Ltd although I may be wrong..... They made late versions of the green '60 pattern smock & trousers, the same in DPM, the '68 and revised 77-onwards models of combat suit, tropical DPM, parkas, etc...... A clue with any British combat clothing is that NSN's (NATO stock numbers) did not generally appear on garment labels until around 1968-69......and prior to then most labels actually carried a date of manufacture........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Hi, I have an OG P1960 smock and a P1968 smock - both made by James Smith & Co of Derby. Borrowing the pictures on the excellent 'forces80' website, the P1960 smock has the following style of label: http://www.forces80.com/images/60pattlaba2.jpg And the P1968 smock has this style of label: http://www.forces80.com/images/labelsmock68pattern.jpg Can I therefore assume that the P1960 smock is a late one and the P1968 smock is an early one, or is it more complicated than that? Thanks, Mark[/QUO James Smith & Co were a pretty big company and made all sorts of British combat clothing from roughly the mid-1960's until the late 1970's......I have an article somewhere written by the former director describing the company going out of business and the skilled workforce being made redundant......they were perhaps the largest manufacturer of British combat clothing and had several factories, including Derby, Rhymney and Staveley......I can't remember at this point without looking up, but I think they may have been a subsidiary company of Cookson & Clegg Ltd although I may be wrong..... They made late versions of the green '60 pattern smock & trousers, the same in DPM, the '68 and revised 77-onwards models of combat suit, tropical DPM, parkas, etc...... A clue with any British combat clothing is that NSN's (NATO stock numbers) did not generally appear on garment labels until around 1968-69......and prior to then most labels actually carried a date of manufacture........ James Smith merged with John Compton Sons & Webb Ltd in 1968 resulting in 16 factories and a workforce of 4,500.....then a further ownership change occurred during 1978..........I think the company went out of business during 1987...??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Hi, Following on from this, I've just won a eBay auction on a DPM Para Smock made by James Smith & Co. (£25 inc p&p:-D) This presumably dates it no later than February 1987 when they went out of business? I can see in the pictures that it has the FFD pocket underneath the right arm, so am I right in assuming it was made between 1984-87? Thanks, Mark PS. Link on the company's demise: http://www.bygonederbyshire.co.uk/stories/8203-James-Smith-unforgettable-day-hundreds-Derby-clothing-factory-workers-lost-jobs/article-1797562-detail/article.html PPS. eBay auction: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150619991761&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Yes it is a '84/85 pattern Smock so your date line should be right. Ta Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Yes it is a '84/85 pattern Smock so your date line should be right.Ta Jon Many early DPM para, SAS & arctic windproof smocks seem to have been made by H E Textiles Ltd of Newcastle.....I have an article somewhere suggesting that this particular company were awarded a huge contract around the late-1970's/early 1980's for the supply of combat clothing........their name, however, seems to feature more on the former garments than standard pattern combat clothing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 Yes it is a '84/85 pattern Smock so your date line should be right.Ta Jon Thanks. Am I right in thinking they take a button-on P1968 smock hood? Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Thanks. Am I right in thinking they take a button-on P1968 smock hood?Cheers, Mark Indeed, although rarely if ever seen with one fitted......same was the case with the sniper smock...... The DPM '68 pattern hood, actually introduced in 1972, was listed as obsolete in the August 1986 edition of the QM's (section CG) catalogue and had disappeared from the inventory by 1990. Yet para and sniper smocks still being made up to the present time still carry fittings for the attachment of the hood.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Thanks. That's handy as I have a mint P1968 hood in the darker 1980's(?) type DPM that'll go with it.:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 The 1968pat hood does not fit the 84 pat jackets. you will have to sew an extra button at the nape of the neck in order for it to fit corectly. Ta Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 I've received the Para smock and it does have hood buttons - although they're 3 separate buttons around the back of the collar just for the hood rather than 1 hood specific button and using the 2 epaulette buttons to attach. My P68 hood fits perfectly. It has a Staff Sergeant badge on the right sleeve, but nothing else and no sign of any badges having been removed. I'd therefore guess it was 'acquired' by a non-para, although it has both an NSN and a contract code so I assume it's not a commercial copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I've received the Para smock and it does have hood buttons - although they're 3 separate buttons around the back of the collar just for the hood rather than 1 hood specific button and using the 2 epaulette buttons to attach. My P68 hood fits perfectly. It has a Staff Sergeant badge on the right sleeve, but nothing else and no sign of any badges having been removed. I'd therefore guess it was 'acquired' by a non-para, although it has both an NSN and a contract code so I assume it's not a commercial copy. As mentioned, the hood attachment rear button disappeared from infantry combat smocks around 1984 but continued to be fitted to para and sniper smocks until the present day.....odd really, when the hood disappeared from the inventory by the late 1980's ! The para smock was much sought after by non-airborne troops.......I had one myself...until some bugger nicked it from the drying room... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 And just for the hell of it, the label reads: SMOCK PARACHUTIST'S 8415-99-132-4015 Size 180/96 JAMES SMITH & Co. (DERBY) LTD SL31B/2265 Over it has been written 'MURPHY' and the number '24680571'. Anyone know him?:-D The buttons are Prym rather than Newey and the zip is unbranded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) And just for the hell of it, the label reads: SMOCK PARACHUTIST'S 8415-99-132-4015 Size 180/96 JAMES SMITH & Co. (DERBY) LTD SL31B/2265 Over it has been written 'MURPHY' and the number '24680571'. Anyone know him?:-D The buttons are Prym rather than Newey and the zip is unbranded. Prym took over Newey during the 1980's/90's and the use of the Newey name was dropped....."NZ" found on some zippers refers to "Newey Zips"..... Rather interestingly, Newey fasteners were used on wartime British para smocks and Prym on German ones...!!! Edited June 29, 2011 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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