R Cubed Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I have been pondering this for a while now, seeing Transits towing plant trailers with diggers ect even say horse boxes and rice trailers, got me thinking about this and I have been looking at various License's, on them it generally says C1+E less than or equal to 12000Kg, then clause 107, which refers to ... Not More Than 8250Kg. So with C1+E and 107 which seems a common clause max total weight is 8250Kg. Well how would this weight be made up bearing in mind some vehicles are capable of towing more than their own weight: Tow vehicle and Towed load ( trailer and load ) Say 3500Kg + 4750Kg ? 4000Kg + 4250Kg ? 6000Kg + 2250Kg ? If this is the case does it matter as long as you do not go over the 8250Kg, as most hitches I have seen don't go above 3500Kg, what hitch would you need to exceed 3500Kg ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Well how would this weight be made up bearing in mind some vehicles are capable of towing more than their own weight: Normally a 7.5 Tonne lorry towing a 750Kgs Trailer. Introduced I believe to allow road making gangs to tow a small Vibrating roller on a trailer (permissible as an un-braked trailer) behind the Tarmac Wagon. Edited January 26, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Ok, yep I can understand that, but say you have an American pickup truck which has a MAM of say 4000Kg and is towing a trailer with a MAM of 3500Kg's so the total would be 7500Kg's is this ok. Edited January 27, 2011 by R Cubed Included MAM making more sense!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Remember it is not the weight of the truck or the trailer at the time it is towing that counts, but the Maximum authorised mass for each. Ie if you have a loaded truck or if you have the same truck empty, the trailer you can tow is the same. Just cos a truck is empty, and therefore lighter, than a loaded truck, doesn't mean you can tow a heavier trailer. Equally you can't say have a 7.5Tonne truck, and tow an empty trailer weighing 750 Kilo or less, if that trailer would have a greater laden weight than 750 Kgs. Everything is based on the theoretical maximum weight of lorry and trailer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Ok, yep I can understand that, but say you have an American pickup truck which weighs say 4000Kg loaded and is towing a trailer loaded at 3500Kg's total of 7500Kg's is this ok. At first impressions, that complies with C1+E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero-Five-Two Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Most vehicles have a maximum towing weight worked out by the clever types who designed it in the first place. Your car will have it listed in the technical section of the handbook, or you can find out from the main dealer. Same goes for a truck, it is usually stamped on the data plate, along with its axle weights etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Isn't the norm that a trailer when fully laden must not exceed the kerb weight of a vehicle, unless the Manufacturer declares it as a towing vehicle? Bear in mind the max tow of 50mm ball is three ton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 all depends upon type...ie artic, towing vehicle is less than 10 tons and yet can haul 44 trtactor unit can drawbar even more depending upon type... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Interesting, but how is the MAM of a trailer worked out, say for example it is an old one, before id plates etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Isn't the norm that a trailer when fully laden must not exceed the kerb weight of a vehicle, unless the Manufacturer declares it as a towing vehicle? Bear in mind the max tow of 50mm ball is three ton. Such as Land Rovers and Range Rovers good to 3500Kg's. ??? I thought that the max towing capacity of a 50mm ball and catch was 3500Kg have seen trailer catches rated to this but not over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Interesting, but how is the MAM of a trailer worked out, say for example it is an old one, before id plates etc? Stop loading it when the tyres go bang :cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Remember it is not the weight of the truck or the trailer at the time it is towing that counts, but the Maximum authorised mass for each. Ie if you have a loaded truck or if you have the same truck empty, the trailer you can tow is the same. Just cos a truck is empty, and therefore lighter, than a loaded truck, doesn't mean you can tow a heavier trailer. Equally you can't say have a 7.5Tonne truck, and tow an empty trailer weighing 750 Kilo or less, if that trailer would have a greater laden weight than 750 Kgs. Everything is based on the theoretical maximum weight of lorry and trailer. Ahh so this is why people are getting stopped in say a car towing a large trailer with a car on it as this would lightly be over the tow capacity of the tow car :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Such as Land Rovers and Range Rovers good to 3500Kg's. ??? I thought that the max towing capacity of a 50mm ball and catch was 3500Kg have seen trailer catches rated to this but not over that. I googled tow ball ratings and found several rated at 3.5 Tonnes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 All very confusing :nut: So in days gone by how did the likes of Wynes ect tow masive loads with what would be a or several very small trucks. Am I right in thinking that there is no law which covers the max load a vehicle can tow ? (something I have been told a while ago) !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I googled tow ball ratings and found several rated at 3.5 Tonnes. And at 5 tons with a 32mm pin..http://www.dixonbate.co.uk/Towing/universal.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Stop loading it when the tyres go bang :cool2: LOL, the trailer I was thinking of doesn't have any air in the tyres, just rubber! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I googled tow ball ratings and found several rated at 3.5 Tonnes. Mewtric! I wuz dragged up Imperial! :cool2: Though in the good old days I was towing a Rice Farmers Hunt trailer 18 cwt unladen, with two big horses, say another Imperial ton, with a 240 Volvo 2.3 auto estate. I was on the M4 (Luckly) Thought I was making god time but transmission was getting hot. Then looked at the speedo 95mph!! Learnt an important lesson, watch speed when towing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) All very confusing :nut: So in days gone by how did the likes of Wynes ect tow masive loads with what would be a or several very small trucks. Am I right in thinking that there is no law which covers the max load a vehicle can tow ? (something I have been told a while ago) !!!!! simple bigger/more balls than 50mm Edited January 28, 2011 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I googled tow ball ratings and found several rated at 3.5 Tonnes. 3.5 tonnes is the maximum weight which can legally be towed with a towball coupling, it is also the max weight which can be towed using over-run trailer brakes. In the early days Land-Rovers used to be rated to tow 4 tons gross but to do this required jaw/pin coupling (or an appropriately rated NATO type coupling) plus power brakes on the trailer. Interesting that a 2286cc petrol Series II can legally tow 4 tons, but a brand-new Defender 90 only 3.5 tonnes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 3.5 tonnes is the maximum weight which can legally be towed with a towball coupling, it is also the max weight which can be towed using over-run trailer brakes. In the early days Land-Rovers used to be rated to tow 4 tons gross but to do this required jaw/pin coupling (or an appropriately rated NATO type coupling) plus power brakes on the trailer. Interesting that a 2286cc petrol Series II can legally tow 4 tons, but a brand-new Defender 90 only 3.5 tonnes! Have you a link to an official site for this, I searched and could not find one. You may well be correct, but it would be nice to know which legislation says this is so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 3.5 tonnes is the maximum weight which can legally be towed with a towball coupling, it is also the max weight which can be towed using over-run trailer brakes. In the early days Land-Rovers used to be rated to tow 4 tons gross but to do this required jaw/pin coupling (or an appropriately rated NATO type coupling) plus power brakes on the trailer. Interesting that a 2286cc petrol Series II can legally tow 4 tons, but a brand-new Defender 90 only 3.5 tonnes! Have you a link to an official site for this, I searched and could not find one. You may well be correct, but it would be nice to know which legislation says this is so. Unfortunately not, I don't have a link at the moment (assuming that you mean the 3.5 tonne limit, not the thing about Land-Rovers). I suspect that it may be C&U '86 (as amended) but would need to find my copy and read it to check (as has been discussed before in this forum, there is unfortunately no online copy of the C&U regs). It is one of those things that I have "always known" but now I am asked how, I don't know! I must have read it somewhere probably about 35 years ago, certainly well before the era of type-approval and all that malarky. The law relating to trailers has changed extensively as a result of the influence (interference?) of European regulations and it is possible that the situation has changed. Searching quickly online now I find reference to things like "Type 2 trailers" which is a new Euro-thing and I have no idea what it means. However, to the best of my knowledge it is still the case that a ball has a legal max of 3.5 tonnes and so do over-run brakes. When I get the time I will try to find out more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (as has been discussed before in this forum, there is unfortunately no online copy of the C&U regs) http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?21696-Road-vehicles-(construction-and-use)-regulations-1986 :cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 I have been pondering this for a while now, seeing Transits towing plant trailers with diggers ect even say horse boxes and rice trailers, got me thinking about this and I have been looking at various License's, on them it generally says C1+E less than or equal to 12000Kg, then clause 107, which refers to ... Not More Than 8250Kg.So with C1+E and 107 which seems a common clause max total weight is 8250Kg. Well how would this weight be made up bearing in mind some vehicles are capable of towing more than their own weight: Tow vehicle and Towed load ( trailer and load ) Say 3500Kg + 4750Kg ? 4000Kg + 4250Kg ? 6000Kg + 2250Kg ? If this is the case does it matter as long as you do not go over the 8250Kg, as most hitches I have seen don't go above 3500Kg, what hitch would you need to exceed 3500Kg ? I have come across some reference recently to removing the clause 107 on the old type driving licence's thus increasing the limit to 12000Kg by taking a test, does any one know any more about this ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I have come across some reference recently to removing the clause 107 on the old type driving licence's thus increasing the limit to 12000Kg by taking a test, does any one know any more about this ?? The 107 restriction is only found on licences where the C1 category is present by virtue of grandfather rights, ie if you had a full car licence before the new categories came into force (1997 I think) you could drive vehicles up to 7.5 tons gvw and 8.25 tons gtw. This entitlement has no age-related restrictions, so will remain present as long as you have your licence. The "new" Euro category C1+E allows 12 tonnes GTW but since this is a greater gtw than you would have had with the old car licence, the restriction 107 was invented to reduce the scope of your entitlement. The new Euro C1+E has the same age restrictions as the cat C, ie it needs to be renewed every 5 years from age 45, but this only requires a medical, not a driving test. So the current situation is that if you have C1+E through grandfather rights you have the code 107 restriction and an enduring licence (ie it doesn't need renewing at 45). To remove the restriction you would need to take a current C1+E test which would give you the full 12 tonnes gtw entitlement (ie remove the 107) but this will need renewing every 5 years from age 45. If you have the C1+E (107) by grandfather rights and take the C1+E test to get the 107 restriction removed, and then don't renew the licence when the medical falls due, you will revert to entitlement you held through grandfather rights, ie C1+E (107). If you have taken the C1+E test since the new category was introduced, you will be 12 tonnes rated anyway. This also will of course need renewing every 5 years from 45. One slightly odd outcome from all this come is you had a full car licence and a full HGV 1 entitlement prior to the introduction of the new licence categories, like I did. Despite having full car and full HGV1 pre-97, my licence now has B+E, C1+E (107), and C+E. It took me a while to work out why the 107 hadn't cleared since the C+E obviously allows me to drive unlimited gross trains weights on the road (subject to Special Types regs etc). The reason is due to the different expiry dates; the C+E now has to be renewed every 5 years (since I am over 45) whilst the B+E and C1+E (107) do not. So if I chose not to renew the C+E entitlement, the 107 restriction would again become effective. I hope that you can make sense of this, it is actually less complicated than it sounds when you write it down. It does however require a little thought to figure it all out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 The 107 restriction is only found on licences where the C1 category is present by virtue of grandfather rights, ie if you had a full car licence before the new categories came into force (1997 I think) you could drive vehicles up to 7.5 tons gvw and 8.25 tons gtw. This entitlement has no age-related restrictions, so will remain present as long as you have your licence. Yup ok. The "new" Euro category C1+E allows 12 tonnes GTW but since this is a greater gtw than you would have had with the old car licence, the restriction 107 was invented to reduce the scope of your entitlement. The new Euro C1+E has the same age restrictions as the cat C, ie it needs to be renewed every 5 years from age 45, but this only requires a medical, not a driving test. So the current situation is that if you have C1+E through grandfather rights you have the code 107 restriction and an enduring licence (ie it doesn't need renewing at 45). To remove the restriction you would need to take a current C1+E test which would give you the full 12 tonnes gtw entitlement (ie remove the 107) but this will need renewing every 5 years from age 45. So to get the 107 removed you would need to take a full C1+E test just to increase the GTW by 3750Kg's although you would still only be able to drive upto a 7500Kg vehicle without a trailer ? If you have the C1+E (107) by grandfather rights and take the C1+E test to get the 107 restriction removed, and then don't renew the licence when the medical falls due, you will revert to entitlement you held through grandfather rights, ie C1+E (107). If you have taken the C1+E test since the new category was introduced, you will be 12 tonnes rated anyway. This also will of course need renewing every 5 years from 45. One slightly odd outcome from all this come is you had a full car licence and a full HGV 1 entitlement prior to the introduction of the new licence categories, like I did. Despite having full car and full HGV1 pre-97, my licence now has B+E, C1+E (107), and C+E. It took me a while to work out why the 107 hadn't cleared since the C+E obviously allows me to drive unlimited gross trains weights on the road (subject to Special Types regs etc). The reason is due to the different expiry dates; the C+E now has to be renewed every 5 years (since I am over 45) whilst the B+E and C1+E (107) do not. So if I chose not to renew the C+E entitlement, the 107 restriction would again become effective. I hope that you can make sense of this, it is actually less complicated than it sounds when you write it down. It does however require a little thought to figure it all out! Yes I think I see what you mean. :nut: So is this right to current licences: B are vehicles upto 3500Kg C1 are vehicles between 3500Kg and 7500Kg C are vehicles over 7500Kg but upto what ? C1+E with code 107 vehicles upto 7500Kg towing upto 8250Kg GTW. Without code 107 towing upto 12000Kg GTW C+E are vehicles over 7500Kg and towing with a GTW over 12000Kg but up to what ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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