buried and abandoned tanks

[eddy8men]

thanks tony. as long as we know where they are they will be recovered one day :thumbsup:

[eddy8men]

just copied this off wikipedia

 

A single Covenanter gun–tank is preserved at The Tank Museum, Bovington, in the United Kingdom. It is displayed in the markings it had during the War when it served with the 13th/18th Royal Hussars, part of the 9th Armoured Division. For unknown reasons, it was buried after the war on a farm near Dorking. In the early 1980s it was discovered, recovered, restored and put on display at the Bovington museum.^[2] The Tank Museum also has the turret from an early Covenanter pilot model.^[15] The partially buried, wrecked hulls of two other tanks may be seen at Titchwell Marsh in Norfolk, UK.^[16] Now a Royal Society for the Protection of Birds nature reserve, the area was formerly a tank gunnery range and the Covenanters were likely used as targets.^[17]

[draganm]

looked pretty good when they dug it up in 1977. Wonder what the other 2 look like 40 years later, probably not this good.

 

name of person who pointed out the tank in this article

http://ranmorewarmemorial.info/the-denbies-home-guard/

 

[Bob Grundy]

I am awaiting to be told something different but I think it was 1987 not 1977.

[Packhow75]

The Tank Museum vehicle came from Bradley Farm near Dorking in Surrey and it was said that there were two other tanks also buried but left there. I do not think that they will be recovered now as Bradley Farm became the Denbies Vinyard (one of the largest in the UK) and I would doubt that they would pull up rows of vines for a tank recovery.

 

Vineyards rip up and replant the vines every so often (at least they do in France, so I'd assume the same here in the UK)... best bet would be to speak to the vineyard and ask them if they plan to replant any time, and then if you can excavate when they do.

[Tony Lawrence]

I am awaiting to be told something different but I think it was 1987 not 1977.

 

It was probably 1987 as after a customer told me about it (I own Dorking Models in West St., Dorking) I drove my jeep up to the barn where it was being stored and took several photos of it. I will try to find them but unfortunately they are in storage at the moment. I remember the remains of the red/white/red flashes showing. I also remember the low loader carrying it off to Bovington passing up West St. under a tarpaulin - it was recognisable by the wheels.

By a strange coincidence amongst some secondhand books/magazines that I took in at the time was a brown leatherette covered file that was labelled LMS Workshops, Crewe. It was the manual for a Covenanter and inside were some typewritten sheets marked 'Top Secret' regarding an exercise on Salisbury Plain involving 9th Armoured Division (panda head insignia) 9th AD used Covenanters on exercises in the South of England.

I sent copies to David Fletcher at Bovington who was most interested and we came to the conclusion that these could have been related to the buried Covenanter but who knows. I still have the documents and manual.

 

The thought is also that the Canadians buried the tanks before they left for D-Day having used them for recovery/bridging exercises in the area of the very large anti-tank ditch dug across the River Mole valley between Box Hill and Ranmore.

[ajmac]

Even though the farm is now a Vineyard, there is nothing to say that they are buried under the vines, you could be lucky. It would be interesting to know why the others were reburied. Were they shot up and considered too far gone for restoration? Did anyone see them back in the day?

[draganm]

I am awaiting to be told something different but I think it was 1987 not 1977.

I dunno, Maybe recovered in 77 and restored in 87? I was just going by the article, which is pretty interesting. You don't hear much about the home-guard.

 

 

It was probably 1987 as after a customer told me about it (I own Dorking Models in West St., Dorking) I drove my jeep up to the barn where it was being stored and took several photos of it. I will try to find them but unfortunately they are in storage at the moment. I remember the remains of the red/white/red flashes showing. I also remember the low loader carrying it off to Bovington passing up West St. under a tarpaulin - it was recognisable by the wheels.

any chance you could drop by Denbies Wine Estate vineyard for a bottle of wine and the "casually" ask about excavating the site :-D

 

 

The thought is also that the Canadians buried the tanks before they left for D-Day having used them for recovery/bridging exercises in the area of the very large anti-tank ditch dug across the River Mole valley between Box Hill and Ranmore.

the author of the article believes these were used by Candadians, I wonder if the former warden of the grounds is stil laround

Former gamekeeper and Estate bailiff, Walter Hitchcock (see Home Guard picture below), identified Its place of burial. It is now in the Army Tank Museum at Bovington.

 

 

It would be interesting to know why the others were reburied. Were they shot up and considered too far gone for restoration? Did anyone see them back in the day?

well in that pic the tank is either not shot up at all or completely peppered with small caliber rounds. Hard to tell

[Richard Farrant]

I wonder if the former warden of the grounds is still around

 

 

 

 

In 1944, he would have probably been too old to go in the services, so best bet by now is he is pushing up daises as are the other two tanks.

[Tony Lawrence]

I dunno, Maybe recovered in 77 and restored in 87? I was just going by the article, which is pretty interesting. You don't hear much about the home-guard.

 

Definitely 1987 as I didn't get my jeep until 1979.

Also the Canadians didn't use Covenanters. As far as I can remember there was no damage caused by small arms or larger. The main gun had been removed (usefully Bovington had a spare gun but no tank)

[Packhow75]

This article, written last year, suggests someone is thinking about digging them up soon... also suggests they may not lie under the vines...

 

https://arcticterntalk.org/tag/canadian-tanks-buried-denbies/

[draganm]

All this talk of cruiser tanks and then a good article on War History Online

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/crusader-tank-flawed-unreliable-combat.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=warhistoryonline&utm_content=%5BWar+History+Online%5D+Your+Daily+Dose

it reminded me an excellent book I read in the 80's called Brazen Chariots. If anyone is looking for a good read it's a first hand account of a Stuart tank commander in north Africa . The one account that really stuck with me was his recollection of a friendly fire incident where they shot up a Crusader by accident, killing the gunner. I think it was the worst experience for the Major in charge.

This article, written last year, suggests someone is thinking about digging them up soon... also suggests they may not lie under the vines...

 

https://arcticterntalk.org/tag/canadian-tanks-buried-denbies/

dam, 400K bottles? I didn't even know they made wine in the UK much less that much of it. Sounds easy enough though, just go to the "Tall trees" and start flinging some dirt :-D

Whoever it is they're keeping this little endeavor on the down-low as there's been no mention here AFAIK.

 

There used to be a house on the property that was requestioned by the Canadian military in world war 2. When they left they took their tanks with them except three were non-functioning and were pushed down a hill and buried. To date only one has been excavated and the other two remain buried in the fields and are marked there by two tall trees. There is a possibility that further excavations of at least one tank may be considered in the next year or two.In September 1940 the Canadian West Nova Scotia Regiment was camped at Upper Common, Netley Heath, West Horsley, on the North Downs

where a Bf110 crashed after being shot down (4th Sept.).

 

 

while your all at it, grab the Messerschmidt too.

 

Pic of tall tress, Bf109 should be off to the right

[draganm]

In 1944, he would have probably been too old to go in the services, so best bet by now is he is pushing up daises as are the other two tanks.

that's too bad. Grounds keeper/warden Sounds like a good job though back in the day.

 

if these are recovered and a missing turret or main gun is the issue, the AA version looks really good too for a possible repro fab.

[simon king]

Isn't that a Crusader based 40mm SPAAG rather than a Covenanter?

[Richard Farrant]

that's too bad. Grounds keeper/warden Sounds like a good job though back in the day.

 

if these are recovered and a missing turret or main gun is the issue, the AA version looks really good too for a possible repro fab.

 

From the census number this started off as a Crusader II

[Tony Lawrence]

From the census number this started off as a Crusader II

 

All AA versions were based on Crusaders - Covenanters were only gun tanks used for training purposes except for a few used as OP tanks in the Western desert

[eddy8men]

great stuff. just what the thread was started for! so who is actually going to do something about it.

[Bob Grundy]

The first thing is to locate them. Rick and me are 250 miles from the area, however someone more local needs to use a ground penetrating radar in the suspected location. There are dark nights now......

[rog8811]

I drive past the winery every day, just lacking the GPR

For many years I worked alongside a local historian who knew of the tanks. he had lived in Dorking all his life and saw them burried. Sadly he died 30 years ago so no chance of more info.

 

He had his own maps of all the downed planes and V1's that came down in the area. He took me on a dig once, they were trying to recover the guns from a Heinkel 111 that crashed in Blackbrook, as a kid he had got to the crash site before the home guard got there and recovered the top end of the steering yoke, and discovered that the ball races were marked "made in Birmingham"!

[eddy8men]

roger good of you to volunteer, what help do you want from the rest of us

[draganm]

GPR?

According that article someone had plans to dig those things up as recently as last summer. That would imply that

1) the winery knows where they are

2) someone might already have plans or a deal in place with the winery?

 

First step might be -call the winery and find out.

 

If the original diggers from last year are out of the picture, then a good deal might be to make it something that would be beneficial for the winery and help promote their products too. Like Set up a viewing stand and wine tasting event a safe distance away , that sorta thing. That would also possibly skirt the need to pay them to remove the relics.

 

Between the excavation and hauling the cost here will already be significant.

 

A call to Bovi might be in order too. They seem to have a number of extra turrets lying around. If they took the turrets off the other 2 chassis's in 1987 then this might not be worth it.

 

Wish I wasn't 2K miles away, an excavation sounds like fun, especially since you guys aren't digging the concrete-like hard-pan we have in the dessert southwest:cheesy:

 

According to the article, they were rolled down a hill and then buried, so good chance you won't have to pull them out of a pit.

[draganm]

 

He took me on a dig once, they were trying to recover the guns from a Heinkel 111 that crashed in Blackbrook,

BTW, did you find the guns?

[eddy8men]

i have a 65 ton foden and 38 ton low loader bought to do just this type of thing, i am also toying with the idea of buying a 22 ton digger. i am more than capable of digging and recovering a tank in a day with this kit, i just struggle with the paperwork and organisation, i'm also currently trying to recover/chasing 4 other ww2 tanks which takes a lot of time and energy.

 

is anyone else willing to do the leg work. if so and we can gain the permissions needed from the people that own the land then i will commit to recovering it!

 

who else wants to preserve our armoured heritage.

[fesm_ndt]

Set up a viewing stand and wine tasting event a safe distance away

 

I'd volunteer for this.....:cool2:

[Surveyor]

i have a 65 ton foden and 38 ton low loader bought to do just this type of thing, i am also toying with the idea of buying a 22 ton digger. i am more than capable of digging and recovering a tank in a day with this kit, i just struggle with the paperwork and organisation, i'm also currently trying to recover/chasing 4 other ww2 tanks which takes a lot of time and energy.

 

is anyone else willing to do the leg work. if so and we can gain the permissions needed from the people that own the land then i will commit to recovering it!

 

who else wants to preserve our armoured heritage.

 

It sounds as though you have done this before, do you have a indication of what is involved? as I may be interested