red Diesel

[benbenukuk]

Hi all, The fv432 im going to be getting has been regested as a crawler and I have been told I can run it on Red, is this Ture? thanks. Ben

[Marmite!!]

No... http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?19477-Pink-diesel

Edited November 26, 2010 by Marmite!!

[benbenukuk]

That was a fast reply, Just wanted to make sure as my dad can get red from work for free, thanks. Ben

[antarmike]

The fine and possible confiscation of your vehicle will make "Free" very expensive....

[Adrian Barrell]

There is new legislation coming in on January 1st that mandates the use of low sulphur gas oil in off road applications.

 

The options are either low sulphur gas oil or rebated derv with a red dye, both of which are more expensive than standard gas oil.

 

It's all about emissions.....

[R Cubed]

There is new legislation coming in on January 1st that mandates the use of low sulphur gas oil in off road applications.

 

The options are either low sulphur gas oil or rebated derv with a red dye, both of which are more expensive than standard gas oil.

 

It's all about emissions.....

 

OFF ROAD !!!!! How can they legislate for off road use :nut: tell me more.

[Adrian Barrell]

OFF ROAD !!!!! How can they legislate for off road use :nut: tell me more.

 

I suspect it is more for commercial use but it also covers 'pleasurecraft'.

 

I also feel it will be unenforceable to a large extent!

[Tony B]

Bl**dy satillites and sniffer dogs I should imagine! :banghead:

[ArtistsRifles]

This conjures up images of VOSA shooting into the arena at W&P to demand a dip test on the heavies fuel tanks....

 

Given the dust clouds in the arena when they are going around - it probably would not be conducive to longevity of both vehicle and operator!!

[cosrec]

Hi all, The fv432 im going to be getting has been regested as a crawler and I have been told I can run it on Red, is this Ture? thanks. Ben

 

You can run it on what ever you like just dont go on a public road with it.

Unless of course you have a legitimate reason for going down the road in a crawler and feel sure it was legally registered as such and it complys with all the various regulations then you will be ok. Basicaly forget about going to do shopping in it

Edited November 28, 2010 by cosrec

[Marmite!!]

2.3 Can any vehicle use rebated heavy oils as road fuel?

 

Only vehicles which are specifically excluded from the legal definition of ’road vehicle’ may use rebated heavy oil as road fuel. These are known as 'excepted vehicles' and are listed in Section 8. Unless the vehicle is included in that section it counts as a ’road vehicle’ and must use fully duty paid fuel.

 

8. Excepted vehicles

 

(referred to at paragraphs 2.3 and 4.2).

top ^

8.1 What vehicles can use rebated fuel?

 

Certain categories of vehicle are excluded from the definition of road vehicles, and can therefore use rebated fuel. The different categories of excepted vehicle are explained in the following paragraphs. However, operators should keep abreast of changes to the rules because it is their responsibility to ensure that their vehicles use the appropriate fuel. HMRC therefore recommends that they make regular checks on the HMRC website which publishes details of alterations to the rules and updates to this notice.

top ^

8.2 Unlicensed vehicles not used on public roads

 

A vehicle that is not used on the public road and has no licence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 is an excepted vehicle. If a vehicle has become untaxed since 31 January 1998 it requires a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN). Such vehicles will be eligible to use red diesel if a SORN declaration has been made. Unlicensed vehicles that do not require a SORN (including unregistered vehicles that have never used the public road) will continue to be able to use red diesel without a SORN declaration if kept off-road.

Unlicensed vehicles are not permitted to run on public roads under any circumstances. HMRC will take legal action if such a vehicle is found on public roads using red diesel. Other offences beyond the scope of HMRC responsibility may also be committed if such a vehicle runs on public roads, even if road fuel (‘white diesel’) is being used.

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document

[cosrec]

You would be better of selling your free red diesel and paying for a transporter if you want to move it somewhere

[Sidewinder]

Sorry to chuck water on your bonfire, but as stated in an earlier post your 432 is not road legal, even if it is already road registered regardless of what fuel/tax/insurance you might have.

 

They do not comply with construction and use regulations in that fact that they are overwidth, and do not have a separate steering, braking and secondary braking system. These vehicles were registered by mistake, now you might well get away with fooling your average copper if you get pulled, but get involved in an accident in one of these and they'll bend you over a barrel.

 

One of the reasons I won't run mine on the road, if you've not any land to use it on if you've not already bought it I'd save your cash. Not trying to ruin your night, just save you from a lot of aggro in the future.

 

Plenty of information on this forum about them not being road legal.

 

Cheers, James

[andym]

8.2 Unlicensed vehicles not used on public roads

 

A vehicle that is not used on the public road and has no licence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 is an excepted vehicle. If a vehicle has become untaxed since 31 January 1998 it requires a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN). Such vehicles will be eligible to use red diesel if a SORN declaration has been made. Unlicensed vehicles that do not require a SORN (including unregistered vehicles that have never used the public road) will continue to be able to use red diesel without a SORN declaration if kept off-road.

 

Hang on - is there a nasty little Gotcha hiding here? I read this as saying that a vehicle which is, or has been road registered can only use red diesel ON PRIVATE LAND if a SORN has been declared? I wonder how many people with "Historic" taxed vehicles this will bite, as there's usually no incentive to declare it SORN?

 

Andy

[Marmite!!]

Hang on - is there a nasty little Gotcha hiding here? I read this as saying that a vehicle which is, or has been road registered can only use red diesel ON PRIVATE LAND if a SORN has been declared? I wonder how many people with "Historic" taxed vehicles this will bite, as there's usually no incentive to declare it SORN?

 

Andy

I would of thought the fine for not declaring it off road was an incentive.

[utt61]

Hang on - is there a nasty little Gotcha hiding here? I read this as saying that a vehicle which is, or has been road registered can only use red diesel ON PRIVATE LAND if a SORN has been declared? I wonder how many people with "Historic" taxed vehicles this will bite, as there's usually no incentive to declare it SORN?

 

Andy

 

Correct. If it is taxed as Historic Vehicle and is roadworthy and otherwise legal for road use, it CANNOT use red on private land.

 

If you want to be able legally to use red on private land you must SORN it beforehand thus rendering it legally incapable of running on the road. Clearly if you do this, then before returning it to road-legal status you must flush out all traces of red from the fuel system and refill with taxed fuel.

[ChasSomT.]

Following on from that, is there a HMRC 'approved' way of flushing ALL traces of red diesel from a system? :-)

Chas.

[antarmike]

Following on from that, is there a HMRC 'approved' way of flushing ALL traces of red diesel from a system? :-)

Chas.

 

You don't have to flush it, A mechanism exists for you to declare you are using red on the road, and pay the duty on it. Although red dyed, it has then become DERV and can stay in the system.

[paulob1]

I know not a lot of sense in all of this but it is all relative to use...for instance a tractor being used for farm work is capable of running on red, but if it is used for working on say hedges as a contractor which is not agricultural then it needs to run on white. Where a vehicle might be used for both then proof of purchase of the white diesel used whilst being used on the road for non agricultural will generally suffice...no need to flush...

 

my FV432 is road registered and legal...

Edited November 29, 2010 by paulob1

[Tugger]

You don't have to flush it, A mechanism exists for you to declare you are using red on the road, and pay the duty on it. Although red dyed, it has then become DERV and can stay in the system.

 

I concur and have first hand experience of doing so. (and mentioned it in a thread somewhere here before)

[andym]

I would of thought the fine for not declaring it off road was an incentive.

 

Not necessarily, because SORN is a mechanism for explaining why you haven't renewed your road tax. The DVLA website says:

 

You must make a SORN if one of the following applies:

 

 

• if you don’t renew your vehicle tax and you are keeping the vehicle off the road

• if you are applying for a refund of vehicle tax and keeping the vehicle off the road

• if you buy an untaxed vehicle and do not tax it

• every 12 months if you continue to keep your vehicle off the road

• in advance if your vehicle is to be kept off the road in the UK when you are abroad

 

 

For a vehicle classed as Historic, apart from the red diesel issue there's no real incentive to declare SORN as the tax is "free", so you might as well keep it off the road but accept the free tax disc every year.

 

Andy

[paulob1]

SORN is one of the most stupid interfering idiocies of the UK system, I can relate but not agree with them asking me to tell them it isnt on the road, but surely by me not having a tax disc that is automatic...why do I have to have a letter telling me to re sorn it every year then a letter telling me is has been done...it is jobs for jobs sake and totally idiotic...DVLA use the car and the owners there of, as cash cows so that the DVLA can employ more people it is as simple as that...

[andym]

SORN is one of the most stupid interfering idiocies of the UK system, I can relate but not agree with them asking me to tell them it isnt on the road, but surely by me not having a tax disc that is automatic...why do I have to have a letter telling me to re sorn it every year then a letter telling me is has been done...it is jobs for jobs sake and totally idiotic...DVLA use the car and the owners there of, as cash cows so that the DVLA can employ more people it is as simple as that...

 

Ah, but that assumes you're honest. In an ideal bureaucratic world, the police would have time to investigate every vehicle that's registered but doesn't have a tax disc. Because they don't, SORN is intended to direct their attention to those vehicles that don't have either SORN or a tax disc and are therefore presumably running around on the road untaxed. Whether it actually achieves that aim is a matter for conjecture ...

 

Andy

[antarmike]

Ah, but that assumes you're honest. In an ideal bureaucratic world, the police would have time to investigate every vehicle that's registered but doesn't have a tax disc. Because they don't, SORN is intended to direct their attention to those vehicles that don't have either SORN or a tax disc and are therefore presumably running around on the road untaxed. Whether it actually achieves that aim is a matter for conjecture ...

 

Andy

 

Being very cynical I thought SORN was introduced so that nobody could say, if caught out on the road, "I forgot the tax was out of date and I didn't get a reminder". By making a SORN declaration it proves you willingly lied that you weren't using the vehicle when you were and where perfectly aware it needed taxing and you had chosen to use it despite not having tax.

 

This then opens up heavier penalties when your case comes to court!

[paulob1]

see what I mean, there is absolutely no justification for it, no one knows why it is and there is not a legitimate reason for it...

 

it is bureaucratic mumbo jumbo jobs for the boys .....because we have all these criminals driving without road tax and stealing millions from us, so lets get the people who are bad at paperwork paying for it by this method...they are not daft but they are ridiculous.

 

And SORN stops them...? I think not...