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Phil P

Be careful what you post!

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Did you know, some folks probably do, that VOSA and the Department for Transport read this Forum and other vehicle related sites. Names, dates and details have been quoted by both agencies.

 

Phil

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Yes, we know, and that is why I gave up trying to represent HMVF to the DfT regarding HGV testing exemptions....

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Did you know, some folks probably do, that VOSA and the Department for Transport read this Forum and other vehicle related sites. Names, dates and details have been quoted by both agencies.

 

Phil

 

 

Absolutely!

 

And it has been a ho topic in the staff room for some time. I had my ear bent more than once yesterday at Malvern. Newspapers have used HMVF to pull stories from without asking my pernission at all. We do indeed have folks here from many agencies.

 

I have stated right from the beginning that such posts, comments and views will undermine the hobby. Is that really what people want?

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i have found that vosa in my dealings with them have allways been helpfull and dvla maidstone were also good .

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Absolutely!

 

I have stated right from the beginning that such posts, comments and views will undermine the hobby. Is that really what people want?

 

 

Slippery slope Jack......

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If you didn't ought to be posting about what you are doing, maybe you ought not be doing it anyway????

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True but it's quite easy to convince yourself that you are within the law by some interpretation of the regs!

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True but it's quite easy to convince yourself that you are within the law by some interpretation of the regs!

I for one would not like to see these discussions disappear. It is important for us to be able to freely discuss contradictions and grey areas within the law. It is important both because there are loopholes which help us, and because there are pitfalls of which we should be aware. To supress this kind of discussion is to deny its relevance to our hobby. I believe this would be completely irresponsible, especially as it seems so few people are prepared to carry out their own research - at least an archive of well-argued threads here might encourage people to research further.

 

I am actually pleased to hear that DfT, VOSA etc. are researching in places like HMVF to see what people are actually doing with their vehicles rather than just sitting in offices blindly assuming the regs will only ever be applied to Ford Escorts. I am pleased they are taking their jobs seriously and are trying to work with us and understand what we do.

 

- MG

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I for one would not like to see these discussions disappear. It is important for us to be able to freely discuss contradictions and grey areas within the law. It is important both because there are loopholes which help us, and because there are pitfalls of which we should be aware. To supress this kind of discussion is to deny its relevance to our hobby. I believe this would be completely irresponsible, especially as it seems so few people are prepared to carry out their own research - at least an archive of well-argued threads here might encourage people to research further.

 

I am actually pleased to hear that DfT, VOSA etc. are researching in places like HMVF to see what people are actually doing with their vehicles rather than just sitting in offices blindly assuming the regs will only ever be applied to Ford Escorts. I am pleased they are taking their jobs seriously and are trying to work with us and understand what we do.

 

- MG

Well put Mike... I personally think that too many people in this hobby have their heads in the sand & it is those within the hobby that will do damage to it & not those that are prepared to discuss it & work within the law rather than trying to twist it to suit themselves..

 

I think statements like these do more damage to the hobby than having honest open discussions on legislation etc.. comments like that make it look like we have something to hide.. it's simple your either legal or your not.. work within the law/rules not against..

Edited by Marmite!!

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Did you know, some folks probably do, that VOSA and the Department for Transport read this Forum and other vehicle related sites. Names, dates and details have been quoted by both agencies.

 

Phil

We have a man from the DfT who joined the forum as a member to help us, not to spy on us & work against us!!

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Disagree completely Mike. This whole subject has bugged and annoyed for some time. My biggest fear is that this is a one way ticket for the hobby. Since we signed the Lisbon Treaty (which not many folks are aware of) we have lost so many civil rights and continuing to do so at an alarming rate.

 

 

The internet is a powerful tool and whatever you write here is ‘out there’ forever. Do you know the quickest way to destroy a business? It is as simple as tying it up in red tape – just look at the amount the agricultural industry has to do just to keep in business. You can take any business and look at the amount of paper work and hoops that it has to be jumped through – you can apply the same to most if not all activities in life. With the MVT stating that they have sent out a 50 page plus event guide to their area secretaries so that they don’t fall foul of the law. OK so that is doable because the MVT hold their shows but it want be long before it will be 75 pages, 100 pages and so on. It will get to a point where people just want be bothered and it will take such a massive team to apply all of the so called regulations.

 

Then you have to look at other areas of MV ownership, MOT’s, lighting, emissions, seat belts, passengers, loads and so on. It is all there to be cherry picked because that’s what happens – that’s how it works. Just look around and you will see it. Needing a temporary export licence to take your vehicle to Normandy is another – how much of a pain is that – how people do you know here saying that they just can’t be bothered with it. Speak with many business owners across any sector and you will see how many people just shut up shop because they couldn’t afford to keep up the new regulations.

 

Yes this is a grey area but the topic will turn it from a light grey to black very rapid. After all HMVF is just a ‘pub’ a place where you can just chat and relax. However, even in some pub conversations you wouldn’t broadcast it to the world. Just because this is a forum does not mean that anything and everything is up for discussion. I believe that such discussion are naive, short sighted and destructive. NO ONE here has the answer so you would think but some think they do – I think that is ill informed. The definitive answer lays with the DVLA/VOSA not HMVF or its members. And just to make this clear I have no hidden agenda here – I do not own and over width vehicle – in fact I do not own a military vehicle my agenda is safe guarding this hobby. I don’t expect anyone to agree with what I have said above but that is where I am.

 

 

 

What many folks may not be aware of or appreciated but I speak a large amount of people on topics like this – my ‘post’ bag is always full and there is a lot of discontent out there on this thread and in fairness not many own over width vehicles.

 

I have it levelled at me that I was irresponsible and reckless for holding A&E and even more so for doing it again. But quite frankly I didn’t even give it a thought and haven’t since. Why would I? All the vehicles there were legally road registered vehicles.

 

 

If legislation changes then that will have to be looked at at that time. I hit all my objectives and more with the success of A&E which was mainly to bring it TO the public in a high impact way and goodness didn’t that work. It was to make people aware of our hobby and more so for the memories it serves – are folks losing sight of the bigger picture here. If A&E was to be banned then I would lose nothing, in fact I would gain, I would save myself £3000. But the losers would be the public and the hobby.

 

 

It is my view that this hobby is weak and lacks leadership. Instead of bending over backwards and politely taking everything that is and will be thrown at it, it should be standing its ground and saying – actually this is what we do and WHY and this is how we are going to do it. We are proud of what we do. I have no concerns if you own a WW1 tank or a 432 or an HGV– my view point stretches right across the board.

 

 

You also have to be mindful and aware of the reach that HMVF has. It was only recently that a newspaper had lifted details off from a post someone made here and published the story, they didn’t even know the members name they just used his forum name - I was bloody outraged by this but powerless to do anything. HMVF now so established that when you type in a vehicle HMVF and the thread appears at the top of google.

 

 

Because this thread/topic is so diverse with so many people’s interpretation and views it just goes around in a never ending but increasing loop. But what is clear that we are on the edge of doing more damage than good.

 

 

 

Jack.

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he definitive answer lays with the DVLA/VOSA not HMVF or its members

 

Incorrect, the difinitive answer lays with the Courts

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Incorrect, the difinitive answer lays with the Courts

 

 

Point taken.

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Common sense needs to be applied to the typed word sentence paragraph. Not everything has to be placed in writing the good old conversation should be you're first point of call before writing something contentious.

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Disagree completely Mike. This whole subject has bugged and annoyed for some time. My biggest fear is that this is a one way ticket for the hobby. Since we signed the Lisbon Treaty (which not many folks are aware of) we have lost so many civil rights and continuing to do so at an alarming rate...

 

I'm not sure why A&E is being mentioned so I'll leave that to one side.

 

Your discussion is a fair counterpoint to mine and I appreciate your point of view, however the natural conclusion of what you say is that we should initiate some sort of anarchic situation where people blatantly disregard laws they think are out-dated or unfair. Maybe we do require some major changes to bring some common sense back into the way our lives are run but I would suggest this requires a top-down change to the whole mindset of society, not just a bunch of HMV enthusiasts running riot. Perhaps I'm missing your point?

 

It infuriates me too that in our hobby we are required to obey rules which are at best confusing and at worst outright contradictory, and that can only be clarified at great expense in court. But what is the solution? By remaining citizens of this country we consent to live by the laws of the land. That does not mean you cannot challenge them or campaign to have them changed but all the time they are on the statute books they are to be obeyed as best possible. I believe it is acceptable to have healthy and polite debate about our different interpretations of law. If DfT, VOSA etc read our debates they will see that they largely arise because the law is not clear. If it was clear we would not need to be discussing it. I do not see it puts HMVF in a bad light even if occasionally people get upset - this is human nature and just shows their strength of feeling.

 

Just my opinion.

 

- MG

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I'm not sure why A&E is being mentioned so I'll leave that to one side.

 

Your discussion is a fair counterpoint to mine and I appreciate your point of view, however the natural conclusion of what you say is that we should initiate some sort of anarchic situation where people blatantly disregard laws they think are out-dated or unfair. Maybe we do require some major changes to bring some common sense back into the way our lives are run but I would suggest this requires a top-down change to the whole mindset of society, not just a bunch of HMV enthusiasts running riot. Perhaps I'm missing your point?

 

It infuriates me too that in our hobby we are required to obey rules which are at best confusing and at worst outright contradictory, and that can only be clarified at great expense in court. But what is the solution? By remaining citizens of this country we consent to live by the laws of the land. That does not mean you cannot challenge them or campaign to have them changed but all the time they are on the statute books they are to be obeyed as best possible. I believe it is acceptable to have healthy and polite debate about our different interpretations of law. If DfT, VOSA etc read our debates they will see that they largely arise because the law is not clear. If it was clear we would not need to be discussing it. I do not see it puts HMVF in a bad light even if occasionally people get upset - this is human nature and just shows their strength of feeling.

 

Just my opinion.

 

- MG

 

What he said!

 

I don't see how we can 'get out there and wave the banner for the MV movement' whilst at the same time refusing to discuss some of the potential problems facing us.

 

If someone is knowingly breaking the law and admit to it, then they will probably and deservedly be taken to task for it. I don't consider their presence here to tarnish us equally.

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If someone is knowingly breaking the law and admit to it, then they will probably and deservedly be taken to task for it. I don't consider their presence here to tarnish us equally.

 

Whilst I am sure we would all hope we are not 'tarred with the same brush' I'm afraid the reverse is likely to apply and as a consequence we are seen as a nuisance and are likely to lose more of our rights or privilege's.

Edited by Marmite!!
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If the law is not in the hands of the 'people' it is another tool of repression. The law in a Democracy means 'Act or custom which the majority look upon as binding'. If the people can't discuss changing those laws, or attempt to understand them, where do we stand?

At the moment 'Law' seems to be at the will of a minority. A lot of Ministry's are now Agencey's, including our bug bears of DVLA and VOSA. What that means is they do not get their budget from Taxation but from the 'customer'. Us poor saps. And unlike any other buissness we can't take our trade elsewhere.

 

Two sections of a society laugh at the law, those that make it and those that breack it. a lot of Agencys, MP's etc claim Privilige. Ever looked up the derivation? Private Law!

Jack, can't you copyright anything posted on HMVF, then sue them rotten?

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Disagree completely Mike.

 

Jack.

 

Without quoting the original, this post has left me puzzled. Which Mike is this post in answer to? Antarmike or TooTallMike?

 

It is not immediately obvious to me who you are dis-agreeing with.

 

I don't want to rush in with a reply not knowing for certainty whose post you disagree with....

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Without quoting the original, this post has left me puzzled. Which Mike is this post in answer to? Antarmike or TooTallMike?

 

It is not immediately obvious to me who you are dis-agreeing with.

 

Sorry Mike - was replying to TooTall..

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Perhaps it would be seen as beneficial if DVLA/VOSA actually posted instead of lurking. I don't recall many posts beyond one persons initial intro here.

 

And if they worked WITH the historic vehicle movement - both Civil and Military - to ensure that it prospers rather than (as seems to be the case) appear to be hell bent on eradicating it, be it at their own behest or Brussels....

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