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my mk 4 churchill


eddy8men

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it's almost been a year to the day since i last posted anything on the old girl, time flies when you're having fun :D well the move from shrewsbury went without hitch other than the fact that it was supposed to go to my home in manchester but the wagon driver thought it was unrealistic to unload it at my house, which with the benefit of hindsight i'm inclined to agree with him so it ended up at bob's yard in wigan where it was kept company by my centaur and cromwell (sorry bob) it's pretty much sat there being ignored until yesterday when i went over to bob's to start cleaning the hull ready for sand blasting and painting before it's finally moved to manchester where i can work on it !

before it's blasted i wanted to see if i could identify the wd number or any other unit markings that would help to identify it and these are the results. i can't make anything out other than 27/B at the end. does anyone else have an idea of what the numbers could be ?

2012-06-11 18.53.12.jpg

2012-06-11 18.53.21.jpg

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Interesting fact you've brought up there Adrian...;)...

I never knew Gloucester Rail Carriage and Truck Works built tanks in the war ! .

.I used to sell them a lot of steel pipe and fittings back in the early 1980s :-D....another grand old company that's long , long gone these days unfortunately .....last time I looked, their last surviving big workshop was an indoor Go Kart Centre :cry:

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thanks adrian

 

it looks like it's a mk IV vauxhall built churchill, as it has the later armour cone nuts as opposed to the cones welded over the bolt ends which is how the earlier marks were built. now i have the wd number i will be able to positively identify it :-D

even though it's a real wreck i'm itching to start the restoration, maybe i'll surprise myself and get it running one day but i'll settle for a static display if it proves too much for me.

 

rick

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I can't find any Churchill numbers that end in 3427...

 

Going through my lists I can only find 22 Churchill IV ending in 27, 10 of which are five figure and 12 which are six figure.

 

Could it be T172427?

 

Were IVs always built as IVs?

Edited by Adrian Barrell
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i think you might be onto something there adrian, i thought there was another unit after the "T" but put it down to overwriting from previous signs, i'll go up to bobs yard and try to clean it a little better and get a few pics from above and below at a sharp angle which might accentuate the numbers.

thanks for all the help guys i owe you a beer, if any of us are still alive by the time it's finished you can even take it for a drive by way of a thank you :D

 

cheers

 

rick

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Rick,

 

If you can get a few more photos I can have a go with some groovy software I've got on my puta.

 

Just had a look at your existing shots and I agree with Adrian its definitely 2427 for the last four digits. Been playing around with colour filters and curves and it looks to me like T132427 Does that make any sense Adrian?

 

I'll have another go with your next pics. Seems to be a Red White Red flash bordered in white above the T number too.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

ColourpullNEF.jpg

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thanks paul any help will be much appreciated.you're right about the red white red square, there's also an upside down triangle on the left upper corner which i assume is the 79 armd insignia, it was much more visible until i rubbed it down with wire wool and oil which was a bad idea, i'll use water and a sponge next time ! there also appears to be a sky blue square with white detail on the upper right side, again i would assume it's unit sign but i don't know which so any suggestions would be welcome.

i'll get some more pics up as soon as i can.

 

cheers

 

rick

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! there also appears to be a sky blue square with white detail on the upper right side, again i would assume it's unit sign but i don't know which so any suggestions would be welcome.

 

 

Rick,

The sky blue square would indicate Royal Engineers, and with it being an AVRE, that fits in.

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Amazing what remnants of paint survive after being outside for so many years. You will get the the bottom of it Rick, but what does the B signify? On the Cromwells a W meant welded hull, but a B on a Churchill?

Edited by ajmac
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alastair don't listen to those two defeatists, B is for "barely scratched"

 

i read somewhere that there were 4 types of avre hull "R" was the original canadian type then A,B and C for various other types ie. dozer equipped, fascine and so on, the only problem with that theory is i have seen many gun tanks with a letter after the wd number so i can't say for sure, the best way to find out would be to speak to an avre veteran, which i intend to do at the soonest opportunity.

 

rick

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Looking through my census number listing I have the following /B types:-

 

AVRE's

 

ARK

ARV

Carpet Layers

Goat

Onion

SBG

NA75

 

And so far 176 different census numbers ending /B. There are obviously a lot more still to find too.

 

Sorry it is not much help.

 

Cheers

Kevin

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i'll use water and a sponge next time

 

Yes, wet down areas where you suspect markings, I've clearly seen remnants of markings on wrecks which were soaked after a good bit of rain, which were nigh impossible to see when they were dried up!

 

Take your time on this bit of armourcheology, once Bob let's loose his sandblaster it will all be gone forever.

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'Yes, wet down areas where you suspect markings, I've clearly seen remnants of markings on wrecks which were soaked after a good bit of rain, which were nigh impossible to see when they were dried up!'

 

I've seen this Churchill a couple of days ago and as you say the rain has shown evidence of markings on a rusty weathered vehicle. On the Offside hull just below the air intakes an inscription can be made out,

 

 

'St JUDE'

 

 

Which as some of you may know is the Patron Saint of lost causes. Sadly I had no camera to record it. Unless Rick has, he may also be on first name terms with him.

Edited by Whittingham warrior
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:D clever dick

 

funnily enough there are some markings on the hull side under the air intake but there's not much left, i might try a rubbing and see if that makes it clearer. here's a few more pics after we cleaned out the hull on monday

phone june 12 022.jpg

phone june 12 024.jpg

phone june 12 029.jpg

phone june 12 030.jpg

phone june 12 019.jpg

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That looks much better than expected inside Rick, good luck. What is the next step, blast and prime or start fabrication of the damaged / missing hull parts?

 

PS. Could you recomend a good Churchill Tank book, as my knowledge is sketchy, e.g. what is the handle bar arangment for on the drivers side, steering?

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hi alastair

 

the next step is to blast the inside and put a drop of primer on it before it moves from bob's yard in wigan to my yard in manchester on saturday, after that it's the long slog of getting the parts together but i look on the churchill as a long term/lifetime effort so i'm not going to put any pressure on myself to get it cracked off, however having said that i am prone to rushing into these things so we'll see.

as for a good churchill book then you need to get "mr churchill's book" but it's expensive at £39 or so it's not cheap but it is worth it.

the handle bar you can see is the steering tiller, which isn't unusual but if you look at the hull gunners side you can see a half tiller this is so the hull mg gunner can take control of the tank to enable him to move the gun onto the target, quite a good idea and unique to the churchill as far as i know.

 

rick

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the churchill is finally now at my yard in manchester, (2 years after i bought it) so i can start to get to grips with the task in hand. the plan was to have it blasted before it left bob's yard in wigan but the weather was not on side so it'll have to wait which is a shame as it would have been nice to get the inside primed, if nothing else it would have helped my motivation :-D

here's a few pics of it leaving bob's yard (thanks bob)

SDC10472.jpg

SDC10473.jpg

SDC10474.jpg

SDC10475.jpg

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