Leyland Daf MMLC DROPS + Flatracks

[extrogg]

I have to agree with many of the opinions expressed here..these vehicles must be treated with respect and not taken lightly. As another experienced DROPS operator Ive seen and experienced the consequences of when things go wrong and trust me they can bite back! We had to go on a weeks course before we were let loose on them..this shows that you need to know before hand what you are doing before just jumping in.

 

Some of the problems ive seen are as follows,

 

1. Engageing the retarder when running downhill empty or with no flat rack in wet weather. It will lock your drive axles and put you in a frightening slide...been there desending into Split..went sideways across both lanes sending cars coming up the hill scattering in all directions!!

 

2. Rollover. This happened to 2 good buddies of mine. Negotiated a bend too fast and flipped the vehicle. They were carrying a water bean can which shifted the centre of gravity. So again all those wanting to carry a high or heavy load needs to take this into account. Ive carried a dead Sabre with no problems..we used to haul them back to Split for the Cheshires and 1 PWO. Also hauled a huge variety of stores and equipment...not just for ammo!

 

3. Trailer transfers. Again this is something that catch people out. When transfering a loaded flat rack onto a King A frame trailer...you got to get it lined up perfectly and take you time or it will slip off the runners and fall into the centre of the trailer frame...not a good situation to be in and recovery can be tricky and frustrating.

 

4. Loading hook coming off the A bar on flat rack...this is slightly embarrasing and you need to think about how to recover from it. Ive attached a pic of this happening today at Leccie.

 

These are just a few that spring to mind...Im not trying to teach people to suck eggs im just trying to point out potential problems so that over zealous owners could encounter..some can be fatal.

 

I makes me worry a little when i see on here people with no previous experience buying a DROPS as a "toy" and going gung ho regarding driving, loading/restraining and operating this fantastic machine. Its an awesome bit of kit and has the capabilities to be pushed to the limits when in experienced hands.

 

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that it will "end in tears"...well please lets not let it get that far...Have fun and most of all BE SAFE!!

 

Andy.

[paulbrook]

With you there Andy 110%.....

 

I can't think of any post war ex military vehicle that needs greater respect (particularly as it is fully road going). As you say, in the hands of the initated it is a marvelous machine, but the converse is equally true.

 

Worth noting too all you potential owners that certainly in the last few years (and Andy will back me up on this) the entire fleet across the world has had to be grounded a number of times due to major defects (steering gear, cross member cracking, gearbox mounts etc etc etc.). Just because it is clean, bright and lightly oiled does not mean there isnt an issue lurking somewhere..

 

Goodness listen to me. I sound like the bloke off dads army. We are not all doomed thankfully, but just watch what happens to our hobby if and when something terrible happens.

[stal108]

Not so sure about the daf scammel type but the foden i have is fitted with abs. I have tried it and it works .And being improved i was told by someone who did the trial the main area was side slope ability. The truck feels planted and very stable.. I agree discretion being the better part of valour!

I have transported a 432 and a reme stalwart(had to let the tyres down to get it under 16.5ft) Also being slower then a daf scammell i drive at 40mph 2000rpm thats near 10mph slower than the mmlc. AND ROUNDABOUTS are taken with caution. Though unloaded its a monster and it drifts like no other truck i have ever owned ,, Full lock broadside.. very controlable and predictable.

Not sure if its the same i know the s26 sldt the difflock is first doubble drive then 6wd then crosslock.. THE IMMLC is frontaxle lock rear axles then crosslock, I belive this to be a very good idea. WHAT DOES THE MMLC DO?

I think the daf scammell type is nowhere near the stability of the foden.

[paulbrook]

The selection progression for the axles and locks is the same on both trucks as far as I can remember. It didn't used to be, the trials Fodens had a set of toggle switches that allowed you to make it up as you went along. But when Foden saw the Scammell set -up (and with a little encouragement from us in the trials team who were all for a little squaddie-proofing) they decided to copy it.

 

Fundamentally the Foden is more stable, it has much stiffer suspension for the same payload and a significantly wider track; widening the track of the Scammell would have been a great idea, but that was the one that had to meet C&U regulations (the IMMLC didn't)

[robin craig]

So Mr Extrogg,

 

You posed the question about an unhooked flatrack. Would the solution be to create a link between the hook and the lift point on the rack with a multiple reeved chain, raise slightly to get it off the arse of the truck and then advance and lower at the same time finally setting it on the ground? That would enable you to re engage the flatrack and start over again.

 

R

Edited October 9, 2011 by robin craig

[m109a3uk]

Just a quick one. How do you put or get a rack off a rack??:embarrassed: Was pondering the other day and seeing Robins Question/answer reminded me about it.

[paulbrook]

One answer (there are others) to both the previous questions is application of the appropriate number of spanset lashing straps....

 

Although for rack stacking we always used to stack them front to back to front and so on - so you ended up with A frames at both ends. Not pretty and the RSM wouldnt like it but fast and safe.

 

All racks have pockets for forks - although you can only use them if the rack is unladen. Happy (and RSM freindly) stacking can therefore be acheived with a volvo or similar fork lift..

[cosrec]

As you know i have had a Scammell with drops gear but it was removed and has since gone so i cant check. But is one of the problems that the rack is not actually locked to the scammell when being transported relying only on gravity to hold it. Hence one of the reasons why it is not a good idea to transort loads with a high CG. So the load is well fastened to the rack but not the truck. Most civillian trucks have hydraulic clamps that operate when the rack is in the transport position

[protruck]

Hi cosrec.

 

From memory the scammell only has guides on the LHS for the flat rack and no hydraulic locks.

 

Clive

[Bran D]

As Clive mentions, there are no hydraulic locks on the Drops rack, only 2 relatively small forgings that prevent the rack tipping. I have found that when loading an empty rack sometimes the rack doesnt fall under these forgings, but sits above them, requiring a part off load then load again. I always get out and double check it has engaged correctly before I move off. There is a transit warning light in the LHS control panel, but this only tells you all the arms have retracted against their relavent end stops.

The only "heavy" load I have moved has been my Saladin, loaded the Daf seems very stable around bends, wallowing much less than my old Foden, and its only 8" higher at 13'. Mind you I'd prefer to come out of a bend thinking I could have taken it faster rather than thinking oh s***!

I've pent £650 on chains, couplings and chain ratchets to hold the Saladin on, engineering support points at the strongest points of the rack itself. It does need care, especially as it attracts a crowd whenever you load at a show, a recipe for disaster or what!

 

I think there are many potential pitfalls with the drops, I am always keen to learn more if the army trained guys want to share their knowledge. Theres no such thing as too much info or experience.

[cosrec]

As Clive mentions, there are no hydraulic locks on the Drops rack, only 2 relatively small forgings that prevent the rack tipping. I have found that when loading an empty rack sometimes the rack doesnt fall under these forgings, but sits above them, requiring a part off load then load again. I always get out and double check it has engaged correctly before I move off. There is a transit warning light in the LHS control panel, but this only tells you all the arms have retracted against their relavent end stops.

The only "heavy" load I have moved has been my Saladin, loaded the Daf seems very stable around bends, wallowing much less than my old Foden, and its only 8" higher at 13'. Mind you I'd prefer to come out of a bend thinking I could have taken it faster rather than thinking oh s***!

I've pent £650 on chains, couplings and chain ratchets to hold the Saladin on, engineering support points at the strongest points of the rack itself. It does need care, especially as it attracts a crowd whenever you load at a show, a recipe for disaster or what!

 

I think there are many potential pitfalls with the drops, I am always keen to learn more if the army trained guys want to share their knowledge. Theres no such thing as too much info or experience.

 

I guess by forgings you mean the two little wedge shaped brakets at the piont were the front body mount piont is from memory i would say they overlap bottom flange of channel on rack by about 1/4" although i dont know for sure.

 

Put a drawing on to show an object (vehicle) 8ft*8ft with a CG at about 1/2 way piont and at what piont it starts to fall over + same object when stood a foot higher on a rack with channels at about 3ft centres makes my mind boggle. Think biggest problem could be rack twisting of back of truck. If i were transporting a 432 aboout at 15 tons at that high i would certainly be looking at securing rack to truck at back end at least

 

 

 

[stal108]

Yes cg is a big problem with a narrow 3ft rack. But the wedges some have spoken about are very strong i would have no problem lifting the whole truck with just one of them, The problem has allready been mentiond.When you load a empty or light(landrover)rack it some times goes over the wedges.. You have to go to unload move it back a few inches and then reload .You can feel it drop in as it goes forward. It is allways best to cheak. But once in the wedges it will never come out unless the arm moves back.The only way this can happen is if both none return valves on the rams go at the same time.. It is possible but so is winning the lottery 6 weeks in a row, Discretion being the better part of valour.. best to cheak and drive in a manner to suite the road condition. I feel if i were young and in a convoy with my mates a red mist may help roll the truck over if you know what i mean. If the truck is operated with in its limits ie 15ton and driven accordingly i can not see any problems .If the rack is fixed to the truck lets say it wont move it makes it the same as any other flatbed truck so a full 16ft 6in load has the same risk roling over as a drops,, , And saying that a drops chassis being much heavyer than a normal 8x4 flatbed it may even be better for stability, as the chassie is heavyer the load weight will be less to keep to 32ton. Also the front pair of wheels are more offset than a std 8x4 chassie as they are more like super singles and some will know the improvement over std rims. 15ton payload 17ton drops,,,,, 13ton flatbed??? 19ton load?? Yes the bed on a daf is higher,, but as said if it rolls over it is operator error end of story.

[cosrec]

Yes but those wedges are pressing on the bottom flange at one end of a 20ft channel. You are talking about a 15ton load with a CG much higher than was envisaged flopping about on those two channels. May be thats why the army did tests and approved what could be carried on them.

i dont know but i will bet there be something in writing some were giving at what hieghts different loads can be carried at for best practice.

[stal108]

I see your point , But the daf carry full size containers there quite tall. I would say it is not the load or hight you need to think off it is the driver and the load balance.. Lets take a 432 15ton on a 15ton capacity truck. The pallet is fixed at 3 points so i would say was quite sound on the chassis( If there was any question it would have not been done) How many times has a pallet come off a truck how common is it daily weekly ??

If i put a 432 on a 8x4 foden lmlc like grumpys old one,, beside the daf being a 1ft taller bed why should it be any different beside the hight the 8x6 daf is far heavyer and as i said has a wider track on the front two axles.. I agree caution is needed and respect driving any truck carrying a high load.

The other week a truck from emr scrap dealer rolled over off a motorway. It has a 20ft container on. FULL os scrap shreded metal ..You know the stand them on end and fill them 26ton then go on an artic to the docks.. A CRANE LOADED THE CONTAINER ONTO A DAF DROPS. off road over a field and the daf had no problems. I was told by the driver it did it with ease and the company are now going to look when replacing there recovery trucks to buy automatics as he was so impressed with the daf,, If you dought it as Dave Chrouch he was the man.

I would say he has more driving experience and judgment than most. I respect his opinion.

Adaf and foden drops are made to carry a 15 ton load ......is there any written orders or manuals that say anything about hight? and unable to carry such things as 432.

I would say it is more down th the driver than the truck capabilitys.

[cosrec]

I think you are missing the piont completely. What iam getting at it is the hieght of the CG and its footprint that dictates wether something stand up or falls over easily not what it wieghs overall. Yes i agree the drops gear is designed to handle fifteen ton but as some one else has said ammunition this would be 15 ton 1ft above the load bed. Not say another 4ft higher. Earlier on you compared the drops chassis with a normal road going chassis saying saying it was heavier and be more stable I diasagree the drops chassis is heavier but its CG is also a lot higher hence it will be more unstable compared to a normal road going vehicle. Hence as someone else said they brought out the overwidth foden chassis as a compramise. Three people on this forum who have worked on trained on drops have all suggest what you are doing probably aint wise and i would agree. Another piont you make is you are letting the tyres down to get its hieght more managable i dont think this is doing anthing to increase its stability the opposite in fact as the tyres could tuck under when cornering etc especially if flat enough to lower its hieght considerably. I know in an emergency any thing can be risked. As a person you are quite welcome to do as you please but as have said before dont advise others to do the same.

[paulbrook]

You do see military DROPS carrying 20ft containers, but they are a long way short of 15 tons. And I am not 100% sure but I think that a drops payload is 15 tons including the weight of the rack. Deep in my memory I recall that the max load for a container on a MMLC is 10 tons.

 

The locking lugs mentioned previously are more than strong enough, but lashing a big load requires lots of lashings (as I remember a full load of ULC (ammo pallets) required 8x5ton straps, one over each pair of ULCs side to side, then one threaded through the bottom of the third pair and one through the bottom of the forth pair) because of the need to spread the point loadings along the securing points of the rack. Each ULC by the way was/is 1.5 tons, making 12 tons in all. Similar complex lashing arrangements were required for differing loads, hence my reference to JSP71 earlier. An ISO rack though has twistlocks.

 

Not mentioned so far is the effect on axle weights of having a 15 ton payload that is not equally distributed along the rack, with perhaps 60-70% of the weight at one end or another. Unlike a Foden the loadbed length of a rack is very limited (just over 19ft) so putting max payload not evenly distributed is going to overload front or rear axle pairs.

 

OLP for a DROPS is half way down the rack (ie 9ft 9in). Unless the C of G of your 13.5 ton (allowing 1.5 ton for the rack) load is slap bang on the OLP you are overloaded somewhere.

[stal108]

Axle weight is a good point. I have massive axle weight on the foden as it is a ballast tractor 16500kg per rear axle 13000kg for the pair of fronts a train weight of 125ton and a gross of 44ton..

On the other hand a daf can be registerd as a normal c&u regulation truck the axle weights will be close on them with 15 ton on.. I have lifted the fodens front pair of axles off the floor before loading a a 432 too far back on the pallet just with a quad bike on the front ,After we swoped it round. put the quad on the back.

As no one has said a rack has fallen off a drops i take it this is not a problem with them.So all the talf about rack lock is irrelevent. There safe when in place, So thats a load off peoples minds knowing the pallet is not going to fall off. What the poit is C,G as said. So its all about stability loaded .Am i right.

As i said i think it more about how it is driven when loaded than it is a problem with the truck. If its driven with respect and caution it should be as safe as any other truck. You should allways remember the load on the rear of the truck is the reponsability of the driver. Best to be safe than sorry i go overboard with chains and straps.

I could be wrong about comparing a 8x4 with a drops.. but the extra weight and wider track it may work out similar.. Even if it a little higher.

Well unless i buy a daf i dont have to worry too much. The foden a by far better truck. Shame its so slow ,,lol

[cosrec]

Axle weight is a good point. I have massive axle weight on the foden as it is a ballast tractor 16500kg per rear axle 13000kg for the pair of fronts a train weight of 125ton and a gross of 44ton..

On the other hand a daf can be registerd as a normal c&u regulation truck the axle weights will be close on them with 15 ton on.. I have lifted the fodens front pair of axles off the floor before loading a a 432 too far back on the pallet just with a quad bike on the front ,After we swoped it round. put the quad on the back.

As no one has said a rack has fallen off a drops i take it this is not a problem with them.So all the talf about rack lock is irrelevent. There safe when in place, So thats a load off peoples minds knowing the pallet is not going to fall off. What the poit is C,G as said. So its all about stability loaded .Am i right.

As i said i think it more about how it is driven when loaded than it is a problem with the truck. If its driven with respect and caution it should be as safe as any other truck. You should allways remember the load on the rear of the truck is the reponsability of the driver. Best to be safe than sorry i go overboard with chains and straps.

I could be wrong about comparing a 8x4 with a drops.. but the extra weight and wider track it may work out similar.. Even if it a little higher.

Well unless i buy a daf i dont have to worry too much. The foden a by far better truck. Shame its so slow ,,lol

 

Non of the first part of this post impresses me at all.

Unless of course the plate screwed to the chassis/cab by the manufacturers states these wieghts. I suspect the wieghts you quote are from an chassis engineering company who supply these wieghts and a certificate for a fee from data supplyed by your self and who will in all probability never seen the vehicle by the way what is the speed limit at these wieghts and why did you apply for STGO plate to get out of MOT or get round CU regs How about a scan of plate/cert

(How do i know did same thing my self once to get a contract when i was short of time to buy a suitable vehicle rung paccar they were adamant they will only issue plate as per original so resorted to chassis engineering co to supply)

Like you say i think you drive it with respect loaded because i think you know its top heavy and riding about with flat tyres to overcome a hieght problem. I have actually got a picture of one that has twisted a rack of the backend and will post when i find it.

Edited October 9, 2011 by cosrec

[stal108]

No idea why the weight would impress anyone,, There is no intention too.. Strange you say that. I take it you have never registerd a special types truck before. The Foden is 9.57 wide to start so can not be registerd under c&u regs.. Thought that was common knowledge with these trucks. The only way it can be registers is as a Locomotive.

Yes it was a company who are approved by VOSA and the DVLA who gave the weights.. The weights are at 40 mph as the max is only quoted at 70kph (43.2mph)MAX. I do not see this as a problem. There are plent of oldtimers on this type of sites and not in touch with moden truck but the is also alot of good info. The cg is very usefull and will allway need to be considerd.

I think being safe is the single most important thing to be done. Take as much care as possible chaining on any type of load (might be best to forget straps) If you are in question on the type of load DONT DO IT! If you feel unsure about driving with this type of load DONT DO IT.

But if you have the relivant info and feel it safe why not. Remember it is the driver who in the end is responsable..

And prob best to leave the daf at home take the foden.

[stal108]

Forgot to mention about letting the tyres down,,,,

Well this would be a terrible idea unless done with thought. So we put sleepers under the hull let the tyres down to the sleepers then chained it on. This also saves the tyres from damage and it worked well.

I am sad to hear you say drive with respect because you know its top heavy,, i would think most LGV drivers would drive with respect regardless of load. It is best to know your limits and if like you are unsure i would either ask someone with more experience or knowledge to help out. Or even it may be best to seek a company with transportation ie lowloader etc.

Do you use your drops on the road what do you carry on it.

[cosrec]

My apologies i thought you were letting the tyres on the Foden to gain clearance. Ithought this because you were on about carring a 432 which has tracks. The reason i asked about speeds is because the maximum ratings you can get are usually marked at 10mph. I would still like to see the 140 ton train wieght in writing. I have by the way done many STGO registrations as usually all the Heavy recovery vehicles we build are units stretched and as such we have to up train wieghts to get them fit for contracts. That is how i know Foden (Paccar wont up wieghts from those shown on original data plates)

Edited October 9, 2011 by cosrec

[paulbrook]

Talking of tyres Ill tell you a little story (should be in the Antar section but never mind). One of the bugbears of tank transporting in Germany was bridge heights; a Cheiftain on a 60 ton trailer was 4.24 m. So great care had to be taken with routes and bridges in particular, both going over them (weight) and under tham (clearance). We used to have bridge maps but they were still all checked first. Well not quite. Once upon a time on Ex Lionheart (1982) some 3 Sqn transporters were detached to the REME for ECP duties (Equipment Collection Point) ie battlefield recovery. One Cpl - lets say his name was Cpl B Mc B was tasked with recovering a stolly with crane, which he promptly then got jammed under a bridge. "Let the tyres down" said the troop staffy before roaring off on his Triumph bike. A couple of hours later he returns to find Cpl B just finishing off re-inflating the last of the 26 tyres on the Antar and trailer........

[Big Al]

Talking of tyres Ill tell you a little story (should be in the Antar section but never mind). One of the bugbears of tank transporting in Germany was bridge heights; a Cheiftain on a 60 ton trailer was 4.24 m. So great care had to be taken with routes and bridges in particular, both going over them (weight) and under tham (clearance). We used to have bridge maps but they were still all checked first. Well not quite. Once upon a time on Ex Lionheart (1982) some 3 Sqn transporters were detached to the REME for ECP duties (Equipment Collection Point) ie battlefield recovery. One Cpl - lets say his name was Cpl B Mc B was tasked with recovering a stolly with crane, which he promptly then got jammed under a bridge. "Let the tyres down" said the troop staffy before roaring off on his Triumph bike. A couple of hours later he returns to find Cpl B just finishing off re-inflating the last of the 26 tyres on the Antar and trailer........

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: I bet the troop staffy was impressed with the Cpl !!!

[paulbrook]

It was par for the course as it happens. Cpl B mc B was in fact ex infantry (tank transporting had lots of re-badged folks) and ex fusiler to boot - hence the nickname "Budgie"....

 

I keep asking folks when they are going to write the book about the tank transporter fraternity (the stories are endless) but then it occurred to me that maybe I should.

 

Like a certain Tp SSgt (now sadly passed away to that big drag in the sky) who appeared (fuming) around the side of a trailer to berate the breakfasting crews. "Right" he said, pointing at the beast tied to the ramp of the trailer "who's is that ****ing greyhound?"

 

"Errrrr yours Staff...."

 

came the reply

 

"You won it last night in that drinking game with the German civvies...."

 

oooo the hangovers we had......

[stal108]

I work for the Highways agency and we so many bridges hit by over hight trucks,, A truck loaded in avonmouth coming up the m5 is the main one,, A bridge between j4 and j3 m5 near Frankley service station it is part of the original 2 lane motorway it is by mm 16ft 6in . Some times you see the regular lowloader drivers go out into lane 3 as the bridge has a slight arch,,,, some forget a few weeks ago it happend but the driver new about it but could not pull out due to cars so he took the risk... Bad idea.. buts of concrete and bend digger hydrolic pipes and oil ,, We had to get 200m or road resurfaced and the bridge xrayed and tested ,Its due for a cosmetic repair next week.