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Identification of engine

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Here is a link to an excellent website with a picture of an unidentified engine being installed:

 

Scene in one of the many mechanical transport workshops behind the line

 

Any ideas of the manufacturer?

 

Tom

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Engine ID'd so what is the chassis? Dumb irons very short and bolted to underside of the chassis rails.

Spokes look square.

what chassis used a Dorman engine?

Then again may be a posed photo and mismatched items.

Doug

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The Dorman 4JO was used in a number of chassis including the Caledon and the Hallford. This chassis is neither of those! The wooden spokes suggest an American chassis but they wouldn't use a British engine. Tim (GWT) will have a suggestion for sure!

 

Steve

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The Dorman 4JO was used in a number of chassis including the Caledon and the Hallford. This chassis is neither of those! The wooden spokes suggest an American chassis but they wouldn't use a British engine. Tim (GWT) will have a suggestion for sure!

 

Steve

 

Rim looks too thin to be wooden spoked wheel. there is not enough room to fit a socketted joint of a wooden spoke... looks like cast wheels to me...or spokes rivetted to a cast Tee section rim.

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Certainly does look like a Pagefield. I dont think the wheels are wooden, a bit of an optical illusion. I cant find my book on Pagefield which is really annoying. Did i lend it to you Steve?

 

Tim

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I have just been Googling Pagefield and have found this comment:

 

'1913 Pagefield produced the N model, a subsidy 4ton lorry using a 42hp Dorman engine and supplied 519 to the Forces. It remained in production until 1931'

 

I agree that it certainly looks like one and you are right, the wheels are cast, now I look again.

 

Are there any survivors? I have never heard of one.

 

Steve

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There's an article on Pagefield in Classic Military Vehicle magazine, February 2003, p.59.

 

Made by Walker Brothers of Page's Field Ironworks, Wigan. They are said to have, "performed well after early problems with frames cracking or rivets working loose and 'inadequate' wheel nuts were solved."

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Herewith close up of a Pagefield front end although the radiator is a replacement. The Pagefield 'WD type chassis' is well written up including the Dorman 4JO engine in the Automobile Engineer series 'Military Transport Chassis, Their Performance under War Conditions', issue for August 1919.

Richard Peskett.

 

Pagefield.jpg

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The Pagefield subsidy type was also written up in Motor Traction for September 9th, 1914. Interestingly, the engine illustrated is their own type, as reproduced here: http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/Image:Im1913Eing-WalkerBros2.jpg

 

The article, in typical glowing terms of the time, says: Many of our readers will doubtless recollect that the Pagefield subsidy type 3 ton chassis first made its public appearance at the Olympia Heavy Motor Show last year, and there received no small amount of attention, as was only expected in view of the excellence of its design and general construction. A careful examination of its chassis leaves no doubt in one's mind that every part is the result of a special study with a view to obtaining that degree of efficiency, reliability, and accessibility which is absolutely essential in a transport machine employed in time of war.

 

The engine dimensions are 4 3/4 in. bore and 5 1/2 in. stroke, and, although the R.A.C. rating is 36.1 h.p., over 40 h.p. is developed at 1,000 r.p.m. The drawing we reproduce... gives a very good idea of the general design of the 40 h.p. Pagefield power unit, but certain features require special mention. Exceptional accessibility has apparently been one of the objects of the designer, and to this characteristic the four large inspection covers on the side of the crank case and the arrangement of the water pump and magneto... largely contribute.

 

Lubrication is forced through the crankshaft to the main and big end bearings by a spur gear pump driven from the lower end of the vertical spindle, upon which a centrifugal governor is also mounted; this spindle is driven from the rear end of the single camshaft. In addition, the big ends are provided with collectors which dip into seperate oil troughs in the bottom half of the crank chamber, so that thoroughly effective lubrication is obtained for the bearings even should the forced system fail. The cross-shaft which drives the water pump and magneto is placed transversely at the front of the engine, and is driven by skew gearing from the camshaft, and its inclined position makes the face of the magneto exceptionally accessible. If required, a second magneto or a lighting dynamo can be easily fitted.

 

One assumes its excellence was ultimately surpassed by the Dorman!

Edited by Runflat

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Mention of the Dorman engine - it would seem it first appeared as the 'JJ' model fitted into a Lacre 5 ton chassis at the Subsidy trials October 1913. Obviously successful it appeared in advertisements by the end of 1914 fully fledged for W.O. usage, at some point it became the '4 JO' which as previously mentioned was widely used.

Richard Peskett.

 

Dorman engines 3.jpg

Lacre  Dorman.jpg

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I have been told there is one original complete survivor which is just missing one bi-block from it's Dorman engine.

 

It is in very long term ownership and unfortunatley it is unlikley to see the light of day any time soon.

 

 

Tom

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Great! I thought they had all gone! No doubt it will come out one day and we can always make a new block if one doesn't turn up. Something to look forward to.

 

Steve

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Here is a link to an excellent website with a picture of an unidentified engine being installed:

 

Scene in one of the many mechanical transport workshops behind the line

 

Any ideas of the manufacturer?

 

Tom

 

it is no doubt a dorman 4jo getting fitted to a pagefield 4 ton truck

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This comparisson will make it easier:

 

4-1.jpg

 

DSCN0011-2.jpg

can anyone tell me where this engine is and is it for sale because i am the person tom has mentioned that is missing one of the two cylinder blocks. many thanks robert

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Perhaps someone looking for a Dorman 4JO may find some joy in contacting some of the narrow gauge blokes. I seem to remember that WW1 Motor Rail simplex's have Dorman engines.

 

Actually I seem to remember that the Festiniog Railways has a 4JO, I watched them start it when I was there last.

 

It involved bump starting it with a steam loco. Progress for you!

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