question Advice on de-acts or replicas please

[The General]

Hi all. I dont want to appear thick or anything? but could anyone give me some advice on the above question.

Firstly I would like to purchase a Garand for my jeep rifle rack. There is a Belgian company now selling the Denix Garand for around £110.00, will I be breaking the law by carrying one in my vehicle. I know other posters have gone this way because of theft etc. Will I be more compliant by buying a new spec de-act?

 

Last weekend i spoke to a vehicle owner sporting many replicas on his vehicle, his opinion was they are only wall hangers-but reading the forum postings it would seem a proper de act is the only compliant way.

 

Secondly, in the future I intend to fit a pintle and repro 50cal, is attending our usual mvt events for display enough to comply with the VCR or do I actually need to belong to a re-enactors club. I only ask because many people i have met this year seem to have both on their vehicles, i would hate to spend some hard earned£££ only to find I have crossed the line.

Thanks in advance, Tim.

[Chris Hall]

Oh this is a tuffy for me, I don't know much about the VCR Bill. As far as I can see, if you can justify owning one i.e. As a member of a recognised group (Like this one) then there is no reason why you couldn't purchase one. It would probably require a membership number etc quoting.

 

I would sugest you visit the WWIIreenacting site and have a look there as they deal with this type of thing all the time.

 

Personally, I think a deac is the way forward because they always increase in value. However, the cost is initialy large to say the least so I can see the attraction of a replica (esp. when my Boys AT rifle cost more than my Royal Enfield WD/CO)

[tinweasle]

As I understand it anything that is made to look like a gun counts as a replica and if you want to make, buy or modify anything to look like a firearm you need to be able to prove that you are using it as a prop for film or theater, that you are part of a re-enactment or living history club or that you belong to a registered airsoft site, you can get an airsoft gun without any of this but it will be in bright colours and painting it to look real is against the law.

 

A deac is not an imatation firearm it is a real one that has been modifyed so as not to fire or even chamber a round and as such you or I can go out a get one without problem.

 

What gets me is that even if you are licenced to own shotguns or say a winchester .308 rifle you still have to go through all this to own something which isnt even a gun and is probably less dangerouse than a walking stick! Now having sead all that I wouldnt want a airsoft gun stuck in my face as im walking home

 

shaun

[Tony B]

If the Garand is in VCR colours, basically the entire rainbow, no problem . If it is in authentic coulours, then you'd be committinmg an offencer importing it, let alone displaying it. Unless you are an exempt person. which for us is 'A memeber of a recognised re-eanctment group, with Public liability'. Mind you no one says how many people need to be in a group, or who 'Recognises' them. You'll ned to show a photographic memebrship card that hs the public liability insurance number on it to any legitamite dealear, Main company for insurance is Hiscox Insurance. Though I did see for sale at the boot market at Finmere airfeild some soft air guns that would have been very questionable on the coulouring, no questions asked just cash.

A de-ac Garand, cash please, just check the right proof marks are on the weapon, the certtificate is aditional.

[airportable]

Dont realy want to give any advice on this thread. But a friend wanted to import a very good replica of a USA M60.

Container opened at customs, He had to prove He was a member of group/club, and supply a covering letter from the club it's self.

Now showing at events. Think I posted pic. on the 'Tern Valley' show report.

[tankie1rtr]

Imitation

Edited September 15, 2010 by tankie1rtr
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[Tony B]

De-acs are treated sepreatley to relastic IMATATION firearms.

[Chris Hall]

Agread, Deacs arn't covered by the VCR act, and you dont need a certificate either. As long as the stamps are visible and nothing has been altered your OK. You dont actually need to have it proofed by one of the 2 houses either. The proof is a definate defence to prosecution but this dosn't peclude the possability that a gun may be deactivated in some other way. i.e. a relic weapon or deac to the same standard as required for proof but has not been proofed as such (Obviously, this would be down to the courts to decide if it came to it).

[Tony B]

As you say Chris a real can of worms. As my FO says' For Christ sake, don't be stupid with any of them. I've enough paperwork!'

[LeeEnfield]

If I'm reading some of the answers posted regarding De-acts not needing certificates, correctly.............umm, why do they ALL come with said piece of paper, then ??

 

I seriously would not want to be stopped, whilst carrying said de-act without cert,........at best I'm thinking you'd have a good talking to by the powers that be and don't forget, just because we know our stuff re wwii kit/guns/uniforms, etc, the average policeman doesn't,......and a guns a gun;.........if armed response was called,...a whole deep pile of poo is tipped up.

 

Also, a lot of events, now are asking to see de-ac certs of those displaying,..and I've even heard of an event organiser refusing to allow those without certs to exhibit.

 

Regarding Imitation firearms, (RIF's) whilst its true you don't need a certificate to own one, most dealers/sellers will want to know which group you belong to, (MVT and IMPS are recognised groups)and also to know you've public liability insurance, (which, if your showing your kit, off vehicle, makes sense to have anyways.)

Shooters Rights and AFRA are also people to talk to in respect of this.

 

As you say, its certainly a question that does get asked quite a few times,.......so its best to get it right. :-)

 

All the best.

Andy

[BIGREDONE]

I have been driving round in my Jeep for the past 7 years to and from shows with either a .30 cal or .50 cal on the back, always, I hasten to add covered up, only uncovering at the event or in organised convoys etc.

 

I keep copies with "copy" written on of all the deact certs in my glove compartment. I have never had a problem with the police. I do believe that if your weapon has proof marks you do not have to hold the deact cert as the weapon can be traced back via the marks, if you want a replacement cert, again I believe it is about £35?? however I feel it is good practice to always buy a weapon with a cert.

 

The same goes with all my deact weapons I use for display including whichever one I display in the windscreen gunrack, again in a sleeve when travelling to and from events.

 

I also belong to AFRA http://www.afra.org.uk/ for my PLI which is £15 per year.

 

If you want to buy a denix get yourself along to Malvern http://www.militaryconvention.co.uk/default.htm or Stoneleigh http://www.militariashows.com/ as they sell them there, the normal trader is "stand up Hook up" AKA Dennis Smith

http://standuphookup1941.com/

 

As mentioned above http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/ is a good source for Denix and they are often on there for sale at cheapish prices along with Denix Thompsons etc.

 

One last word, it is nice looking to have a weapon on the back but the mount does take up some space and makes it cramped in the back for any passengers.

 

Just my 2 pence worth.

 

Paul

[Stone]

If I'm reading some of the answers posted regarding De-acts not needing certificates, correctly.............umm, why do they ALL come with said piece of paper, then ??

If you get stopped by PC Plod and show him the certificate, he'll let you go on your way. If you get stopped and you don't have it with you, he isn't qualified to know if it's been legally deactivated or not so you'll probably be arrested and have weapon confiscated while they check the details.

 

You don't have to have one for it to be a legal deac (proofed = deac, in court) but it makes it a lot easier to prove it's kosher!

 

Stone

[Chris Hall]

Trust me when I say, not even the Police firearms specialists know what theyre looking at/for. If you do talk to a Police man,its always good to educate them on what to look for. I've shown examples of what to look at on a deac weapon to many Policemen and theyre always happy to learn and even happier when they then realise that your machine gun is just chopped metal. It is amazing how many Police officers think that a deac can be reactivated in only a few minutes.

[LeeEnfield]

Trust me when I say, not even the Police firearms specialists know what theyre looking at/for. If you do talk to a Police man,its always good to educate them on what to look for. I've shown examples of what to look at on a deac weapon to many Policemen and theyre always happy to learn and even happier when they then realise that your machine gun is just chopped metal. It is amazing how many Police officers think that a deac can be reactivated in only a few minutes.

 

 

 

Sadly, Very True.........

[Stone]

Had a bit of a weird situation come up so thought I'd ask!

 

I bought a CO2 pistol last week as I fancied something to do a bit of plinking with. It's made as a (very close) replica of a standard 9mm pistol - a Walther P99 - but fires .177 pellets with a CO2 charge. It's finished as black all over, and this is apparently fine. I bought it face-to-face from an RFD.

 

You can get a different version which uses CO2 to fire .177 BBs instead of pellets. Apparently because of the VCR this has to be brightly coloured unless you're an airsoft group member. Why does a BB gun need to be half orange but the same gun firing pellets doesn't? I'm so confused! :nut:

 

Stone

[Marmite!!]

You can get a different version which uses CO2 to fire .177 BBs instead of pellets. Apparently because of the VCR this has to be brightly coloured unless you're an airsoft group member. Why does a BB gun need to be half orange but the same gun firing pellets doesn't? I'm so confused! :nut:

Stone

Not sure but don't forget you can't have a air weapon in a public place without a good reason..

Public Places and Highways

You may never have an airgun in a public place without proper reason for doing so. If you are travelling to and from a place where you have the right to shoot, the gun must be in a case as above. A gun is loaded if there is a pellet or any form of projectile in it, including an "air weapon which has a loaded magazine, is loaded even though there is no round in the breach".

It is an offence to fire an airgun within 50 feet of the centre of a public highway, If by doing so you cause any member of the public using that highway to be injured, interrupted or endangered. This applies even if you are on private property adjacent the highway. Public highways include roads, bridleways and public footpaths.

 

Offence Penalties

Statute Law

The Penalties for breaking current UK firearms laws with Airguns are as follows:-

Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.

Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.

Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.

Possessing or using an air weapon if sentenced to 3 months or more in custody 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.

In addition if original sentence up to 3 years 5 year ban on use of firearms.

Or if for 3 years or more Life ban on use of firearms.

Killing or injuring any bird or protected animal unless authorised £5,000 fine.

Firing an air weapon within 15m / 50ft of a public highway £1,000 fine.

Selling or hiring air weapon or ammunition to person under 17 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.

Making a gift of air weapon or ammunition to person under 14 £1,000 fine.

Having air weapon or ammunition with intent to damage property 10 years imprisonment.

Having air weapon with intent to endanger life Life imprisonment and / or appropriate fine.

Using air weapon to resist or prevent arrest Life imprisonment and / or appropriate fine.

Threatening others with an air weapon (even if unloaded) to cause them to fear unlawful violence 10 years imprisonment and / or appropriate fine.

Not forgetting the chance of being shot and killed by the police should you not obey instructions when challenged by them, they cannot tell if you have just an airgun or a more lethal firearm so will treat all arms as lethal and respond accordingly.

 

 

As part of your display is not a good reason..

[Tony B]

A co2 air pistol of les than 6lbft muzle energy is covered by the Firearms act. Age restricitions etc, so is a Sporting weapon''. A co2 bb pistol less than 0.5 joule muzzle energy is a 'toy' (Unless some litle ... has shot you with one when your driving a bus!) So it's covered by VCR, about as much sense as anything!

[25 pounder]

Trust me when I say, not even the Police firearms specialists know what theyre looking at/for. If you do talk to a Police man,its always good to educate them on what to look for. I've shown examples of what to look at on a deac weapon to many Policemen and theyre always happy to learn and even happier when they then realise that your machine gun is just chopped metal. It is amazing how many Police officers think that a deac can be reactivated in only a few minutes.

I've been following this topic , because I had serious trouble in the past , with my weapons and 25 Pr gun

I learned there is a big difference between a collector of firearms (live or de-act), a reenactor and members of a demo team (shooting on public events)

When police entered my shed , they wanted to confiscate the complete collection , because they could not tell the difference between "real" deact specimen and "replica" . It almost took 2 years before they'd sorted that out , because the replica's were damm good repro's, and off course there were no certificate's belonging to these arms

I know laws are very different from country to country , so the Dutch people are strictly forbidden to carry any weapon in their vehicle , not even a plastic -very recognizable- toy gun. Belgium was a lot more open minded , since couple of years ago laws had changed and the majority of people didn't know what to do or don't.Beware if you take your vehicle and kit out of your country , no EUROPEAN REGULATION so far!!

[rob8066]

Had a bit of a weird situation come up so thought I'd ask!

 

I bought a CO2 pistol last week as I fancied something to do a bit of plinking with. It's made as a (very close) replica of a standard 9mm pistol - a Walther P99 - but fires .177 pellets with a CO2 charge. It's finished as black all over, and this is apparently fine. I bought it face-to-face from an RFD.

 

You can get a different version which uses CO2 to fire .177 BBs instead of pellets. Apparently because of the VCR this has to be brightly coloured unless you're an airsoft group member. Why does a BB gun need to be half orange but the same gun firing pellets doesn't? I'm so confused! :nut:

 

You bought an 'air pistol' not a replica or even a deac therefore it comes under Firearms legislation.

 

Not covered by the VCR bill, the problem you would have if challenged would be why you have an air pistol at a public show.

 

Ideally go for deacs, if not RIF's & like anything as long as you are sensible with it you won't get any problems.

[Tony B]

As far as taking any de-acs to Europe. it is easier to take a live firier. That's covered by your certificates.