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Stolly sort of swimming, trouble getting out.


gritineye

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The pent up energy under heavy winching is unbelievable. Many years ago i was winching a loaded cement mixer out of a road side dyke i broke a chain . Unpreturbed we carried on on finishing a fitter who had come to come to give me hand went to our commer van which was parked three hundred feet away in the side of it was a hole about about 2 inch dia the front screen was knocked forward and smashed out at one corner on the dash was about 1/2inch of chain link

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I agree we need to be more carefull, yes

Thanks for the advise , it will help next time, We will se how we can use it asap . Arron what are you up to the weekend fancy trying the quarry side??

LIFE IS A RISK.

We may be a little more attentive lol.

LETS HAVE FUN....

lets do the max......

no point owning something you dont use or we would all own jeeps or some thing 2wd all the same i drive a metro pmpl

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OK No one is allowed to use there own winches any more untill there tested and inspected to loler regulations. Same goes for all equipment binders shackels ropes cables,

maybe sell it buy a jeep

Health and safty all the way.

Anyone want to buy a quad bike its a bit dangerous, also anyone got a contact to limit my metro to 70mph?

I have to say the tread on my shoes is a little low. Better buy some more

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I must say you seem to know alot about things breaking and people geting hurt, were they balls ups? were you involved. I hope not it would be pot kettle black sort of thing well i dont think i can say black now , pot calling the kettle a little off side....???

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STAL 108 i must reply i have given you advice learnt from my own mistakes the occasion when i lost my teeth and recieved conccusion and whip lash was etremely painful and if it could save anybody going through the same grief it would be well worth this post. as for the occasion with the commer van i was trying to draw your attention to potential leathal dangers. the widow in holland was a lady who i met whose husband had been decapitaded by a (harmless)winch wire when pulling a truck out of a ferry.

You are free to do what ever you want but please but dont advise others do the same

As i believe you do with over width vehicles

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Knock as much as you want a little thought could have made all the difference and more important reduced the danger to all involved. EG instead of trying to winch it through the bank a recovery vehicle with ample capacity was on scene why not try try backing up a bit so winching upwards more instead of through. Or try using those round wooden rollers to winch over that are carried on milatry vehcles (forget what they are called now) either method would have reduced strain on equipment by half. Get all non essential personal out of way that includes driver and passengers of stalwart they were only adding to problems and dangers

 

I said this some time ago...

 

its all right giving genuine helpful advice from a position of knowledge, but call someone an idiot, with no brains and that his whole operation was a balls up and just check how much respect you will get from that point.

 

If people had come on here and said, well done boys you had a lot of fun but just for the future there are a few things that could have been done a bit better...(even finding out the true facts would have been helpful prior to having a go), I think you would have had a great deal more respect from the outset.

 

Its not the content of what one says its how one or two of you approached it...just like the Arran, he could have done it better, why dont those who were rude and downright offensive also listen..you could have approached it better...Arran has taken it on the chin and listened and learned and is doing something about it...you are still saying it was a balls up...great technical term, and having a hard time getting people to believe you. I wonder why.

 

I think the truth here is some people do learn, some have open minds and are willing to take up good advice, and its especailly the ones who were called idiots and without brains......some people use their knowledge as a battering ram and dont learn anything especailly the ones who keep saying their rude comments are helpful...grow up and learn that the abuse approach may have been useful in the army but it doesnt work here.....

 

Some of you do have some really important knowledge and some like me depend upon you to help us..

 

I am still waiting for someone to actually serialise this excellent event and come up with either better or safer or more reasoned arguments for a different approach. The breaking of the winch rope to me is the only thing that actually went wrong...I dont think that was the fault of the brain dead, or the balls up operation or was it...

 

come on dont hide it tell us what should have been done..

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Hi, some one mentioned about all winches having to be tested along with shackles and chains, I know this is true if being used for a Business. But what about if its your hobby, lets say if you are doing a winching display pulling one truck accross a field with another, and there are peaple watching from a distance, do they all need to have up to date test certificates.

 

Thanks

 

Howard

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To come under Loler Regs. - lifting within a certain degree of vertical (not loading out by winching) , and then arguably business for hire or reward , I forget been retired 5 years now. AFAIK - I still have the UK record for re-testing of Demag & Gottwald mobile struts - well over 840 tonne on the hook

Edited by ruxy
crap spelling
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I personnaly use only rated stuff...the army field use stuff that is clearly over sized is okay as long as you dont try to do anything serious with them...If you dont know the rating it can be really awkward using it as you just dont know what it will take...for instance no use using a 1 ton shackle to haul a stolly out of a river...but it would pull it happily along the track for a short while as long as it was flat and there was no load etc...but still not ideal...using a 25 ton unmarked shackle for anything other than field emergency recovery is okay, but it will bend well before it will break, once its bent it wont undo and you have another problem then...

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I have witnessed what used to be called "single trip shackles" brand marked with SWL , submitted for proof test (2 x SWL) and they failed on the tensile rig at 1/4 of the marked SWL. You can't beat genuine Crosby or equiv.

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Hi, some one mentioned about all winches having to be tested along with shackles and chains, I know this is true if being used for a Business. But what about if its your hobby, lets say if you are doing a winching display pulling one truck accross a field with another, and there are peaple watching from a distance, do they all need to have up to date test certificates.

 

Thanks

 

Howard

 

No, you can do what you like but if something went wrong then the problems would start and I doubt you would have the money to cover the subsequent claims and legal expenses.There would probably also be a holiday at Her Majesty's pleasure.

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Like cosrec I too stand by my comments which are borne out by subsequent posts by the people involved. It is pointless trying to explain any more when the explanations are being undermined by comments about old wives tales and recommending stupid practices. Yes I was involved in the incidents I mentioned but only to the extent that I was present but had no control over other so called recovery operators. Since it is obvious that it is a waste of time trying to help people this will be my last post on this subject.

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Old wives tales of people being cut in half are utter bullsh1t.

 

I am getting images in my head of something I probably saw on Discovery a year or two back.

 

I suspect it was the two Americans who made a series trying to build a better weapon. Many of them, but not all, were mediaeval.

 

I can see images of a steel hawser being deliberately snapped and smacked into a side of pork.

 

ISTR the outcome was as you say, not cut in half.

 

But potentially fatal internal injuries.

 

As usual I stand ready to be corrected.

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Well what can I say, I knew when editing this video that it would put the cat amongst the pigeons, it was edited to be short as possible, entertaining and instructive, which, with the added input from you guys it has proved to be.

 

It could indeed be serialized as there is at least half an hours worth on the cutting room floor, which contains much more detail to pick over, but will not to be put on the web, it would serve no purpose to do so because I think every thing has been said now.

 

I reckon the video and HMVF have done their job well and everyone (including me) should have learned something positive, and not only about recovery.

 

I have another recovery video to post from the same weekend, it is not in the same league as this one, there where no problems, but, sensible comments on recovery techniques would be welcome.

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Surely the issue here is that recovery should never have been needed with a vehicle like the stolly.

The problem was that it was a bad choice of entry and exit location.

It was far too steep to launch from which means that it was always going to struggle to exit from the same spot.

Recovery should only have been needed in case of a mechanical failure.

If it had tried to exit from a suitable location then it should have been fine.

I hate to use the phrase "risk assessment" but there doesn't seem to have been enough forward planning in this case.

 

I don't know what would have happened if Stollys had ever had to cross the Rhine in anger?

I assume that the engineers would have been tasked to prepare landing ramps for them on the other side?

Edited by Johnny
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Its pointless all backing off into seperate corners of the room.

 

As far as the intentions of the stolly owner goes, its good to see an MV being enjoyed and used as it was intended. Its always nice to see them being used.

However, as has been stated, there are some serious points on which you should look and listen.

The reason that some of the members have chastised you about your recovery methods etc is because you have been lucky this time to get away unharmed.

Anyone involved in recovery or heavy plant views inccidents such as this with fear. The reason that they post with perceived anger and frustration is because it may be hard to convey how bloody lucky you have been.

 

As for the claim about snapping wire ropes and deaths being 'old wives tales' I would ask you to tell that to the families of the two Philipino lads who we scraped up and washed off the deck of a vessel off the coast of West Africa.

Anyone who does not treat a wire rope with the respect that it deserves is a dead man walking. I have a scar from a shattered shin to prove it.

 

We all do silly things and will continue to do so but as far as the video goes, if it were me and i intended to do this again (and why not ?) then make sure you have the gear available (ropes, chains, shackles, blocks etc) to ensure a safe recovery if you need it. To be honest, if done correctly it can all add to the fun (I'm sure the Explorer boys will always be only too willing....) but remember that this will draw a crowd like a stripper on a pogo-stick. Crowd control is part and parcel of recovery, its a pain but a necessary evil.

Also, as previously posted, try and do a proper recce of your entry and exit points, saves a lot of hassle or breakages later.

 

Anyway, don't knock the lads who know the risks of the job as they are only trying to prevent what has been seen all too often.

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This thread has been very interesting in that I now know that the winch cables,ect need to be tested. I dont want to be a stick in the mud but at an certain show I attend there are a number of heavy commercials that gointo the arena and do recovery demonstrations for the public to watch. Surely these vehicles should have test certificates for the cables and if they dont then should not be used. The other point is where does the certification of the winch cables stop what about landrovers and other small 4x4 vehicles fitted with a winch, should they have a test certificate? I have a trailer with a 12 volt winch that we use to winch on search lights. should this also have a cerificate?

 

Thanks

 

Howard

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This thread has been very interesting in that I now know that the winch cables,ect need to be tested. I dont want to be a stick in the mud but at an certain show I attend there are a number of heavy commercials that gointo the arena and do recovery demonstrations for the public to watch. Surely these vehicles should have test certificates for the cables and if they dont then should not be used. The other point is where does the certification of the winch cables stop what about landrovers and other small 4x4 vehicles fitted with a winch, should they have a test certificate? I have a trailer with a 12 volt winch that we use to winch on search lights. should this also have a cerificate?

Thanks

Howard

 

As with everything in this hobby you have to display a certain amount of common sense.

If you are going to regularly winch or give winching demonstrations then for your own safety and that of those around you, you would more than likely have a new cable fitted and then you would also have a test cert.

If you were going to use your winch occasionally the you would no doubt run your cable out and inspect it for any breaks, nips or obvious defects.

However, that said, even a new certificated rope is no guarantee of it never breaking.

Also, it comes down to having the right gear (snatch blocks, shackles, chains) and most of all, knowing how to use them...

Its just common sense.

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Hello Desert Rat,

 

Thanks for that, I was just really thinking if the worst happened and someone was hurt, even though every thing was done right, the cable looked in good order ect, but no test certificate then who does the buck lay with. Do the organisers of an event take blame because they did not ask to see a certificate. Or does it just stop with the owner of the vehicle.

 

 

Howard

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Hello Desert Rat,

 

Thanks for that, I was just really thinking if the worst happened and someone was hurt, even though every thing was done right, the cable looked in good order ect, but no test certificate then who does the buck lay with. Do the organisers of an event take blame because they did not ask to see a certificate. Or does it just stop with the owner of the vehicle.

Howard

 

If you really want to play it right, you stay at home and dont take your poluting, politically incorrect, over-sized vehicles to a show. If you do, then you park up, ensure the vehicle is disabled and then put up your cordoned area with a minimum 9 metres between you and the public....

However thats not what we do and the reality is that you attend the show, you ensure that your vehicle is in roadworthy condition and well maintained.

If you are giving demonstrations then it is done in a safe, separate area with ALL members of the public at a safe distance.

If using equipment that has a chance of failing (ropes, winches, explosives etc) then you would be wise to ensure that they are in first class condition. IF something went wrong then in theory (??!!) the public will be out of harms way and you will have thought of most concequences.

Liability ? Thats what your insurance (??) and the organisers insurance (!!!!) policies are for....

But then again, life ain't like that, is it ?

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Since it is obvious that it is a waste of time trying to help people this will be my last post on this subject.

 

So no danger of an apology for "Brain dead" insults then. Sorry is only one word andit goes along way to help people feel better.

 

I know if i was new to the forum and reading comments like yours i would think twice about posting in fear of being made to look like an idiot.

the reason i first posted was not because of the vidio but the aggressive insulting posts that followed.

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I don't what would have happened if Stollys had ever had to cross the Rhine in anger?

I assume that the engineers would have been tasked to prepare landing ramps for them on the other side?

 

They would have sent a couple of CET's across first, they could exit using their rocket propelled anchor and winch and then proceded to prepare the exit piont with their bucket !

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I recovered my stolly with its recovery winch out of a very steep hole, it was a ramp but very steep, i would giuess it was about 35 degrees, the bank was very slippery and the stolly was scrabbling for grip, she ws upto her gunnels in water but not floating...I tied the winch to the tree ahead, there was not enough cable to put a block on and at that time i didnt have a block strong enough, the winch along with the girl in first managed to haul her out...perfrect just as she was designed. However given what i have learned recently it would have been very close to the winches limit, and only becuase i had drive in the old girl that she extricated herself...I doubt the winch could have done it solo.....we were all driving and there was no damage...my stolly is between 9 and 11 tons...

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I am getting images in my head of something I probably saw on Discovery a year or two back.

 

I can see images of a steel hawser being deliberately snapped and smacked into a side of pork.

 

ISTR the outcome was as you say, not cut in half.

 

But potentially fatal internal injuries.

 

As usual I stand ready to be corrected.

 

You aren't going mad- Mythbusters tried it!

 

They concluded- with the "pig test"- that although a snapped winch cable would not sever limbs, it could cause pretty severe damage; unlikely to be fatal (but that was a possibility), but extremely painful nonetheless.

 

Not gonna enter the argument 'cos I don't know diddly squat about winching :-D

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You aren't going mad- Mythbusters tried it!

 

They concluded- with the "pig test"- that although a snapped winch cable would not sever limbs, it could cause pretty severe damage; unlikely to be fatal (but that was a possibility), but extremely painful nonetheless.

 

Not gonna enter the argument 'cos I don't know diddly squat about winching :-D

 

The two lads who were killed near us were smashed to pieces.

One had his leg almost severed from his pelvis and the other had the part where his rib-cage should have been opened up like a can of soup, also breaking through his spine.

This was caused by the ship dropping whilst having a gen-set craned off the deck which caught another rope.

Imagine a steel bar, 40 feet long, 1 inch in diameter moving sideways at 60mph and then hitting you.

it doesn't cut you, it smashes you, or throws you.

 

To be honest, i don't really care. It seems that some of you think because you havent seen it then it wont happen. Good, i hope it never does, but if any of you are ever hit with a small or large steel cable, even if it doesn't snap, then I'd like to see what you post then.

The trouble is, when it happens, and it will happen, it will be down to someone with a total lack of common sense and respect for what they are doing, then the whole MV movement will be changed forever.

Edited by Desert Rat
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