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Stolly sort of swimming, trouble getting out.


gritineye

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Yeah, it really is a bunch of mad hatters there!

 

And I never thought that the stolly actually floats! What sort of propulsion does it make use of, especially when turning so sharp? With 6 spinning locked wheels, it surely cannot turn that sharp?

Hi Montie..... In the water they are driven by 'Dowty Water Jets', similar to jet skis, although the British Army had the swim gear removed from a lot of Stalwarts. The wheels will propel a Stalwart by themselves, whilst floating, but only very slowly.

Also, believe it or not a Saracen will 'swim' using its wheels for propulsion, with extensive preparation,..... the water level when afloat is around the ridge at the edge of the roof,....-now there's a scary thought!!

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Hi all great thread.

Yes i was there in the stolly well inside the hatch on entry and in the driving seat when the hep rope snapped.

Ill try to explain. four of us went to the site(mario has launched his stolly there before!) We asked nick with his scammell to come over for help and 4 turned up well safty in numbers as they say. A GOOD STRAP was placed on the rear to stop it turning over on entry advise from someone who has done it before. I think it worked and was a good safty point???

We asked for chain two equal lenths for the front to attach before we enter for recovery after. We got and old decayed rope off the bonnet of a scammell that was put there from new i think but we were asured it was ok EM .May be em o well. see how it goes.

entry was a little intresting lol but worked ok . the winch out was mad loads of people watching there were weights put on the cable of the scammell but not on the rope. when we were about to start every one was moved futher away look at the vidio. most were in the tree line. the plonkers were not.

After the rope broke we were given cable of a good standard the rope was then used to pull the stolly up a little so the cable could be put on. Then again people were asked to move back and wih some stolly bhp and winch power it poped out.

I will admit it was far from safe.

yes admit

mainly due to onlookers who dont have a clue.

but if health and safty had been there the stolly would have been roped off a scaffold would have been made to climb in and cones used to mark the corner of the metalwork. it would never of happend but it did we had fun .

too many old people about. mind you we may not make it lol pmpl . great day.

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would you use these same words if some body had a claim against you

" I will admit it was far from safe. yes admit"

The whole recovery operation was a balls up from start to finish end of

 

That says it all in a nutshell.

I rest my case:-D

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I feel that I can weigh in as I have had the experience of swimming a stolly at a public place with persons on board and done it without a hiccup.

 

There are old soldiers, and bold soldiers, but very few old bold soldiers. You were lucky on so many counts, think its time for a solid after action review prior to your next sortie sir.

 

R

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That says it all in a nutshell.

I rest my case:-D

 

two wrongs dont make one right,

 

given the information we now have it is clear that the operation was not a 'balls up' it could have been performed a bit better I say but a balls up...typical army speak for I dont know what I am talking about, or if I do I dont want to tell you why...... just because the tow rope was not fit for the job, not entirely his fault and to be fair there were enough knowledgeable people about to have been able to see that, if it was visibly not...its typical of a hemp rope, once its past its due date they simply break...you have little chance of knowing when, although I find with age they are best thrown away or kept in a sealed box away from sun and dirt...dont look as cool then...

 

constructive criticism I can understand.,..'balls up and no brains' comments are more a reflection on the person who writes those words than a reflection on the people they purport to understand.

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Good grief.

 

Reading this and other W&P threads I can only conclude that the hobby here isn't all things green, but armchair generals pontificating.

 

I was there. Most people were back behind the trees out of harms way. I could go on, but I'm not clever enough to have an opinion.

 

 

 

If it worked, the pic above will show that everybody was behind the treeline.

DSC07769a.JPG

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Got a question about the climb out. Was it my ears or was the Stalwart engine off. I'd have though it would be running all the time to assist or perhaps best to let whoever controls the the winch to determine a steady load until traction was guaranteed?

 

And that creaking noise, I was wincing at the time, here, hundreds of miles away.

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i like this forum it's been a great help to me and i'd also just like to say that i'm honoured to be in the prescence of so many perfect people who obey every law and never make a mistake

what i'm trying to say is we all take chances and make mistakes but that doesn't justify jumping down someone's throat so quickly, i'm damn sure you wouldn't do it so forcibly if they were standing toe to toe with you. yeah i agree it looked pretty crazy but it's up to them what they do with their kit and it made for a great video and it took balls to take their pride and joy into the unknown with so many people looking on and i say fair play to them and i bet they learned a little bit too, i guess we'll have to wait til next year to see.

 

have a nice day

 

eddy

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Hi

 

The Stalwart is mine sorry to have up set all you people but at the end of the day it was the highlight of the show for everyone that was there.

 

We took all the correct precautions and no one was even scratched let alone hurt.

 

I've learnt alot and thank you for everyones comments, espeically all you guys sticking up for us, the video makes it look alot worse than it was, ask anyone that was there

 

Best regards

 

Arran

 

Stal915

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if the rope had not snapped would it have been a balls up? No, it would have just been another recovery "operation" equipment failure dose not a balls up make.

The whole snapping winch cable thing is often blown out of all proportion. It won't cut you in half for instance but it will give you a good slap and if it were to hit you in the right place yes it could kill you. Old wives tales of people being cut in half are utter bullsh1t.

I have to winch a 29 ton boat hoist up a slipway accross a public right of way we put up a sign saying "danger working area" 99 percent of people wait for the winch to stop or walk round the front of the tractor. There is always one who dosen't see the possible danger and will step right over the rope. the postman even rode his bike into it and went right over the handel bars:rofl: And yes the 100 meter cable has broken and nobody got cut in half but there was a big splash as hoist and boat hit the water at great speed. Sea water and wire ropes don't mix as they rot inside out.

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i like this forum it's been a great help to me and i'd also just like to say that i'm honoured to be in the prescence of so many perfect people who obey every law and never make a mistake

what i'm trying to say is we all take chances and make mistakes but that doesn't justify jumping down someone's throat so quickly, i'm damn sure you wouldn't do it so forcibly if they were standing toe to toe with you. yeah i agree it looked pretty crazy but it's up to them what they do with their kit and it made for a great video and it took balls to take their pride and joy into the unknown with so many people looking on and i say fair play to them and i bet they learned a little bit too, i guess we'll have to wait til next year to see.

 

have a nice day

 

eddy

 

Fair comment.

 

The problem is that nowadays - with all our protective legislation etc - it is increasingly difficult to take the box of frogs 'what happens if I do this' approach! But hey it's down to individuals what they do. Guess I've done some pretty stupid things along the way too (and hopefully learned from them).

 

If you let the more extreme comments/exchanges wash over you, the posts as a whole add up to a reasonably balanced thread. It should be borne in mind that not every critic is an armchair critic - if someone expresses alarm at something it's worth bearing in mind that it might just be because they have experienced or witnessed or understand just how dangerous certain incidents/situations can be. Sharing that view (ideally in a way that is likely to be accepted and not antagonistic) is only acting responsibly, and giving others an opportunity to broaden their understanding.

 

GO FROGS, GO!

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When incidents happen in lifting or winching situations they are not accidents. They are caused by either faulty/ incorrect equipment or incompetence. I have seen too many incidents resulting in death or serious injury and have an attack of the horrors when I see the things that some people will do. To suggest that its an accident and is humorous when

a sea water rotted rope breaks beggars belief and is totally irresponsible. I think you will find it is not only bad practice but illegal to use untested equipment. Please everybody take note of what Cosrec and other professionals have to say, it could save your own or someone else's life and if you intend to use a vehicle for winching go on a course to learn the correct techniques, it will be money well spent.

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I stand by my use of the words Balls up and not because the rope snapped. But because of irrisponsble way the recovery was handled. Now i know people were probally still on an adrenalin high and not thinkinking about the forces involved perhaps a little ignorance was involved. but believe me all winching operations should be treated with respect. As for there being little danger i personaly met a widow in Holland who would not agree. My self lost 16 teeth and spent 24 hours in hospital when a wire rope parted.

Here is a tried and tested formula to aid you on your next recover job might just save someone a lot of grief one day

 

Winch power Required=

1 Rolling Resistance+

2 Damage Resistance+

3 Gradient Resistance

 

Damaged Resistance=

wt casualty *damaged wheels/Total no wheels in your case 0 tons

 

Gradient Resistance=

Wt casualty/60*slope in degrees over 45degrees = Wt in your case 9tons

 

Rolling resistance=

Sand Mud Wt/2 in your case 4.5tons

 

therefore Total winch power needed a tadge over 13.5 tons if winched parallel to gradient in your case i would suggest the angle it was being pulled at meant at least a third to half of the energy you were applying was doing nothing but pull stalwart into bank. This is born out later in the vidio when you see the earth in front vehicle start to rise up. You compounded the strain on the tackle by trying to drive the machine at the same time this can easily double loads by shock loading. This was all done on two ropes with at guess 2.5 tons SWL it was a no boner from the start. Frankly i am suprised the chains didnt go the same way

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The gyus at work were trying to winch a 40 foot boat up the beach to repair the holes in it and refloat it. cutting a long story short the 68 year old boss had positioned his VW transporter over the winch cable for reasons unknown then from inside the Vw gave the command to winch in. After lots of shouting over the conserns of the unusual VW parking a disgruntled winch operator engaged the winch and gunned the throttle. The Vw transporter flipped on it's side in 1 foot of sea water .The funnyist thing i have ever seen in fact everyone was dying on the foor rolling round. poor jack russle pup trying to climb up the inside of the windscreen. Does that make irresponsible? i think it makes me human

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I stand by my use of the words Balls up and not because the rope snapped. But because of irrisponsble way the recovery was handled. Now i know people were probally still on an adrenalin high and not thinkinking about the forces involved perhaps a little ignorance was involved. but believe me all winching operations should be treated with respect. As for there being little danger i personaly met a widow in Holland who would not agree. My self lost 16 teeth and spent 24 hours in hospital when a wire rope parted.

Here is a tried and tested formula to aid you on your next recover job might just save someone a lot of grief one day

 

Winch power Required=

1 Rolling Resistance+

2 Damage Resistance+

3 Gradient Resistance

 

Damaged Resistance=

wt casualty *damaged wheels/Total no wheels in your case 0 tons

 

Gradient Resistance=

Wt casualty/60*slope in degrees over 45degrees = Wt in your case 9tons

 

Rolling resistance=

Sand Mud Wt/2 in your case 4.5tons

 

therefore Total winch power needed a tadge over 13.5 tons if winched parallel to gradient in your case i would suggest the angle it was being pulled at meant at least a third to half of the energy you were applying was doing nothing but pull stalwart into bank. This is born out later in the vidio when you see the earth in front vehicle start to rise up. You compounded the strain on the tackle by trying to drive the machine at the same time this can easily double loads by shock loading. This was all done on two ropes with at guess 2.5 tons SWL it was a no boner from the start. Frankly i am suprised the chains didnt go the same way

 

So some kind of cribbing built into the river under the wheels would have helped to roll the stolly up the bank? Or better still a second truck with a slewable crane to raise the front of the stolly up as the winch pulls it out?

This is the sort of disscussion we need so we are all educated ready for next time:-)

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here's a thought, the stolly went in the water, it swam around for a bit and then it came out again intact. what loads or other forces were involved i'll never know but you don't have to do everything by the book all the time espacially if you've never read the book and not everyone is a recovery expert but at the end of the day they got the job done and that's all that counts and by the way i'm not an armchair general i spent 14 years in the reme doing this kind of thing and it was often more dodgy and we were the professionals.

i suppose it comes down to the individuals personality, some take risks and some don't

 

eddy

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Knock as much as you want a little thought could have made all the difference and more important reduced the danger to all involved. EG instead of trying to winch it through the bank a recovery vehicle with ample capacity was on scene why not try try backing up a bit so winching upwards more instead of through. Or try using those round wooden rollers to winch over that are carried on milatry vehcles (forget what they are called now) either method would have reduced strain on equipment by half. Get all non essential personal out of way that includes driver and passengers of stalwart they were only adding to problems and dangers

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Knock as much as you want a little thought could have made all the difference and more important reduced the danger to all involved. EG instead of trying to winch it through the bank a recovery vehicle with ample capacity was on scene why not try try backing up a bit so winching upwards more instead of through. Or try using those round wooden rollers to winch over that are carried on milatry vehcles (forget what they are called now) either method would have reduced strain on equipment by half. Get all non essential personal out of way that includes driver and passengers of stalwart they were only adding to problems and dangers

 

Purely out of curiosity - on a Stalwart with with the swim boards and frame work fitted in place and given the cab glass is 0.5" thick and armoured to resist the water hitting it - what is the risk to the driver of the vehicle???

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when the chain rope recovery equipment breaks as we have seen and it drops back in to the water would you stand up and say it was your fault if the driver was knocked sensless and something happened to him you may laugh but the whole thing alas is down to who can blamed for this or that watch telly listen to the no fault accident adverts

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