question 25pounder and limber

[chevpol]

ok folks,

 

what licence do you need to tow a 25 pounder and limber?

 

Mark

[airportable]

Crickey Mark, what you bought now!:shocked:

Andy

[morris c8 fat]

Dont quote me but i think its C1E Limber is required as the breaking system.

[Tony B]

Driving licence? :-D For a go bang gun, a Class 1 firearms certificate. I've got the old rights so no problem driving. The 'trailer' is definitley over 750 kgs. the gun is unbraked so the Trailer No 27 brakes the gun. Remeber the early Quads have the acelerator in the midle, can get very exciting.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tony B

[antarmike]

Driving licence? :-D For a go bang gun, a Class 1 firearms certificate. I've got the old rights so no problem driving. The 'trailer' is definitley over 750 kgs. the gun is unbraked so the Trailer No 27 brakes the gun. Remeber the early Quads have the acelerator in the midle, can get very exciting.

I hate to say it again, but it may not be legal to tow this gun. If it is unbraked and over 750Kgs then, it is not allowed by C and U regs. The fact that there is a braked limber does not alter the fact that they are two seperate trailers, and each has to be braked.

 

A Motor tractor can tow two trailers, but each must be unladen. Only a locomotive can tow a laden trailer and and empty trailer at the same time, (or two Laden Trailers)

 

To tow two trailers, one of which is laden needs a loco, and this has to be over 7,370Kgs.

 

I am assuming the limber will be carrying rounds of some description, so it will be laden.

 

However I cannot see how you can get round towing a trailer (the gun) that is over 750 Kgs and unbraked. That is not allowed.

Edited July 10, 2010 by antarmike

[Degsy]

Oh dear, earwigo again.:rotfl:

[cosrec]

Tut Tut antarmike i thought you would have realised by now there is no piont in tryinging to draw peoples attention to points of law all you will do is get the posts locked. By not mentioning it any problems will dissapear

 

Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Winston Churchill

 

Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things

[antar]

I hate to say it again, but it may not be legal to tow this gun. If it is unbraked and over 750Kgs then, it is not allowed by C and U regs. The fact that there is a braked limber does not alter the fact that they are two seperate trailers, and each has to be braked.

 

A Motor tractor can tow two trailers, but each must be unladen. Only a locomotive can tow a laden trailer and and empty trailer at the same time, (or two Laden Trailers)

 

To tow two trailers, one of which is laden needs a loco, and this has to be over 7,320Kgs.

 

I am assuming the limber will be carrying rounds of some description, so it will be laden.

 

However I cannot see how you can get round towing a trailer (the gun) that is over 750 Kgs and unbraked. That is not allowed.

 

How about mechanically fixing the limber and gun together so that when they are on the road they are one articulating trailer ? As the limber has a braked axle the "trailer" then has brakes. When you get to the show unbolt the linkage.

[antarmike]

How about mechanically fixing the limber and gun together so that when they are on the road they are one articulating trailer ? As the limber has a braked axle the "trailer" then has brakes. When you get to the show unbolt the linkage.

 

Normally when attempting to fix a load, or disable an artic coupling, officialdom tends to use the term "requires a workshop operation", and to me this suggests cutting or grinding to break a weld, rather than simple spanner wielding, which if this was all that was required to seperate the trailers, would mean that officially they remain two trailers, even though bolted together.

 

I thing you have to go down the welding, cutting route, or put the gun and limber on a C and U compliant trailer, and unload them at the show.

 

25 pounder seem to be about 1.8 Tonnes, and if you look at all the loose equipment stowed on the gun, may well make it a loaded trailer. As such you need a loco, ie over 7370 Kgs tow vehicle, if the limber is towed together with it.

 

1.8 Tonnes is quite a lot to concider towing as an unbraked trailer. my advice, don't do it, not legal......but no-one ever listens to me.......

Edited July 10, 2010 by antarmike

[Sean N]

ok folks,

 

what licence do you need to tow a 25 pounder and limber?

 

Mark

 

With what vehicle?

 

You might find this link helpful: http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_067672.pdf

[Tony B]

Mike, most Change of construction and use regulations have an inauguration date. Vehicle manufactured and/or registered before are exempt. Might it not help to post such dates?

 

As far as practical advice for towing a limber and gun. Depending on tow vehicle, the Morris' especially the early ones are a pain. The Mk1 has the accelerator pedal in the middle, the battery by your right eye, and zero peripheral vision. The later ones are some improvment, the CMP is a far nicer beast. The combination can be towed happily by a 101 or I've done it with a LWB Safari Land Rover. I have sen guns towed alone, but wouldn't be keen to try it myself. Better to put the gun on a twin axle bracked trailer.

 

Another problem is those behind getting to close and going under the gun barrel when braking. I've not yet found and answer to this, stupidty can't be cured. Th best defence is to make a muzzle cover with a large warning triangle attached, then add a red warning light in the middle.Seperate strong straps around the gun table to attach it to the carraige are also a must. The fitted locking handles aren't clever and the hooks can straighten

Due to the lousy side/rear visibility a second person out the top is advisable in tight corners.

[antarmike]

Mike, most Change of construction and use regulations have an inauguration date. Vehicle manufactured and/or registered before are exempt. Might it not help to post such dates?

 

 

 

 

When new legislation is enacted previous legislation is revoked.

 

The current C and U regs are the 1986 version, and they make no mention of trailers built before a certain date, when talking about unbraked trailers.

 

ALL trailers over 750.kgs, with a few exceptiopns must be braked.

 

If it was lawful once to tow a 25 pounder it would have been as an opertional military vehicle.

 

Ie exemption from braking regs would have been granted to Army operated guns of this type. This exemption from complying with C and U is not available to a civilian owned weapon.

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/requirementsfortrailers

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/towingwithvehiclesfrequently4577

Edited July 10, 2010 by antarmike

[Tony B]

Yes, I see what you mean. Crown Exemption.

[Grumpy]

Is a gun a trailer then?

 

Can't any one advise on the licence required as this was the question posed by the originator of this post.

[ArtistsRifles]

Is a gun a trailer then?

 

Can't any one advise on the licence required as this was the question posed by the originator of this post.

 

Without knowing the legal definition - or the various ones dreamt up by VOSA's crack team of numpties I would say that a gun is a trailer for the following reasons:

 

* It has road wheels

* It has a towing eye on the trail(s)

* It has no motive power of it's own (OK - I know the FH-70 did...)

Edited July 10, 2010 by ArtistsRifles

[alan turner (RIP)]

I have the old 7.5 car license and have quite easily driven the firepower Chevvy/Bedford Quad even with middle accellerator and outer brake. According to some books of the 60's 25's were towed solo only by RL 3ton as the vehicle did not allow the gun to overtake on braking,just about OK with Pig/Humber 1 ton, but not with standard 3/4 ton land rover as it could turn towing unit over.

Other problem towing gun solo is that the arc of the spade does not allow the gun wheels to follow the track of the towing vehicle, you can't tow gun without limber with quad.

 

Under age allowance, doesnt the quad/limber/gun count as a single unit as that was how they were designed to be used (C & U), if not then its going to F*** up the guys from the Garrison and any other individual who has found fun with playing with such kit.

 

I respect the fact that Xantarmike has spent a lot of the last year with his nose in the rules and law of this country and his glasses stuck to the top of his head.

[Grumpy]

 

I respect the fact that Xantarmike has spent a lot of the last year with his nose in the rules and law of this country and his glasses stuck to the top of his head.

 

Its quite easy to read Law from a book, its the application and understanding of Law that takes talent. :nut:

[Tony B]

Its quite easy to read Law from a book, its the application and understanding of Law that takes talent. :nut:

 

That's why the word 'reasonable' is considered the lawyers retirment fund. Unfortunatley you normally only find out what 'The Law' is when you are standing in the dock. I'd say a gun is a triler for all Neil's reasons, plus you don't normally push it.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tony B

[antarmike]

I have the old 7.5 car license and have quite easily driven the firepower Chevvy/Bedford Quad even with middle accellerator and outer brake. According to some books of the 60's 25's were towed solo only by RL 3ton as the vehicle did not allow the gun to overtake on braking,just about OK with Pig/Humber 1 ton, but not with standard 3/4 ton land rover as it could turn towing unit over.

Other problem towing gun solo is that the arc of the spade does not allow the gun wheels to follow the track of the towing vehicle, you can't tow gun without limber with quad.

 

Under age allowance, doesnt the quad/limber/gun count as a single unit as that was how they were designed to be used (C & U), if not then its going to F*** up the guys from the Garrison and any other individual who has found fun with playing with such kit.

 

I respect the fact that Xantarmike has spent a lot of the last year with his nose in the rules and law of this country and his glasses stuck to the top of his head.

 

 

My understanding would be that the gun is a trailer, the limber is a trailer. There being only "motor vehicles" and "trailers" (or trailed aplliances). C and U does not recognise a gun as anything other than a trailer, (FH70 Excepted!!)

 

Both are probably laden trailers, the limber carrying rounds trailer also carried tools and spares, and could also have the circular firing platform stowed on top for transport. Typical tools carried included axes, crowbars, a projectile erector, handspikes, jack, spade, drag ropes and an illuminated aiming point with post spring and cover,.

The gun carrying ranging poles, ropes?, Spade box, traversing handle, fuse setting keys, etc

The gun, is too heavy to be used because it unbraked and weighs conciderably more than the 750 Kg weight limit that applies to all unbraked trailers..

 

If the two laden trailers are pulled by one vehicle (or one laden and one unladen trailer) it has to be a locomotive, that means its unladen weight has to be 7370 Kgs or over.

 

I doubt whether a quad is heavy enough to be a light Locomotive. if it is under 7370 then it is a motor tractor, and as such can tow two unladen trailers, but it looks dubious whether these are unladen trailers. Where will the turntable be carried?

 

The unit was designed to be used as a tractor pulling a seperate limber, towing a second trailer behind that, (the gun) it can't be argued in any shape or form that it is one vehicle since no tools are required to seperate them.

 

Age is of no relevance to construction and use regulations, neither was intended usage. What determines legality is whether the towing vehicle, and both trailers comply with C and U regs 1986, the current standard that determines what is allowed on the road, and in what circumstances.

 

 

If these could be seen as a single unit, then so would a DiamandT 980/981 plus Rogers combination, and clearly that is proposterous!

Edited July 11, 2010 by antarmike

[Tony B]

Turn table is intregal to the gun. It is attached by mechanical fittings. You can get them off but it would be a 'mechanical ' job.

[Big Al]

Why is it that a quad 25 pounder and limber has to fit into curent law when it was designed and built in 30/40s? The law dos cater for Traction engines and there is provisions wthin the law for changes to driving licenices (Grandfarher Rights), as dos driving pre 1960 HGVs, The way I see it The Quad could be classed has a people carrier the 25 pounder is a gun not a trailer and the limber is a trailer, so on the road the quad can tow the limber and the 25 pounder would be carried on a low loader to the display, just a thought! Persoaly I would like to see the Quad, 25 pounder and Limber has one unit on the road has I think its a great set up and I would like to think that the enfources of the laws would also and treat it as what it is. Just my Thoughts

Al

[Blackpowder44]

This prayer may be applicable to those who give "legal" advice on here

[antarmike]

Why is it that a quad 25 pounder and limber has to fit into curent law when it was designed and built in 30/40s? The law dos cater for Traction engines and there is provisions wthin the law for changes to driving licenices (Grandfarher Rights), as dos driving pre 1960 HGVs, The way I see it The Quad could be classed has a people carrier the 25 pounder is a gun not a trailer and the limber is a trailer, so on the road the quad can tow the limber and the 25 pounder would be carried on a low loader to the display, just a thought! Persoaly I would like to see the Quad, 25 pounder and Limber has one unit on the road has I think its a great set up and I would like to think that the enfources of the laws would also and treat it as what it is. Just my Thoughts

Al

 

At one time your would have seen Boudica and her chariot, with swords whirling out of the wheels, careering around our ancient land, but because she did it it does not mean we can.

 

The point is, as far as I know, a civilian could at no time have ran a Quad/ Limber / 25 pounder, because at the time it was designed and build it never fitted the then current Construction and use regs, or their predecessors.

 

It has only been lawful because it was an vehicle under militray control, and Military vehicles did not have to comply with C and U regs. When in civilian usage, ex military vehicles do have to comply with C and U regs. This means that not all military vehicles can pass into civilian ownership, and continue to be used in the way the Army used them. (This appears to have been the case from at least 1930)

 

As I see it there never has been a point in time when a civilian could tow two trailers behind a vehicle that light (Morris Quad circa 3.4 Tonnes??, therefor probably "Heavy Motor Car"), (and incidentally therefore less than twice the weight of the unbraked gun) , or tow two trailers, one laden, behind anything but a locomotive..Or tow an unbraked trailer at about 1 3/4 Tons.

Edited July 11, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Mike, most Change of construction and use regulations have an inauguration date. Vehicle manufactured and/or registered before are exempt. Might it not help to post such dates?

 

 

 

The earliest copy I own of "road transport law", by LD Kitching is the ninth edition (1953) and gives the legal position as of August 17th 1953.

 

The first edition was 1941. (I wish I could get hold of one!)

 

In 1953 the max weight for an unbraked trailer was 2 Cwt (224 Lbs) or roughly 101 Kgs! (based on regulations enacted in 1951, but presumably inherited from an earlier act)

 

In 1953 (actually dating from a 1941 act), a motor tractor was under 7 1/4 Tons and a light Locomotive 7 1/4 Tons to 11 1/2 Tons.

 

In 1953 a Motor tractor could only tow one laden trailer or two unladen trailers. (based on legislation enacted in 1930)

 

To tow two trailers, one of which was laden required a light Locomotive (ie over 7 1/4 Tons) not designed itself to carry a load. (based on legislation enacted in 1930)

 

In 1953 you could tow any number of trailers provided they were "in the course of manufacture under a contract with The

Ministry of Supply or being delivered in pursuance of such a contract" (based on legislation enacted in 1943)

 

The max number of trailers did not apply to vehicles owned by or driven under the orders of the Navy, Army or R.A.F. (based on legislation enacted in 1930)

 

The situation does not appear to have got tighter over the years, rather things are more relaxed now than in 1953 since max weight for an unbraked trailer has risen from 101KGS to 750kGS.

 

IN 1953 THE SPEED LIMIT FOR A GOODS VEHICLE TOWING A TRAILER WAS 20 MPH, AND THE SPEED LIMIT FOR TOWING TWO UNLADEN TRAILERS 5 MPH. (based on legislation enacted in 1950). A 1947 act exempted operated military vehicles from observing speed limits, so Army owned quads could tow two trailers at a reasonable speed.

 

In 1953 the width limit for any vehicle not running under Special Types was 7' 6" so it was illegal in 1953 to run a Matador as a civilian. (Based on an Act passed in 1951). This means that you could not even have towed two trailers such as Gun and limber (if gun had been braked) behind a Matador, which is a light Locomotive, because the Matador itself was too wide to be run by a civilian operator.

 

In 1953 any vehicle or load over 8' 0" had to be notified to the Police 2 days in advance, on any roads where trams operated. Otherwise if under 9' 6" and under 75 Tons gross, notification was not required. (that figure has now become 9' 6" or a metric equivilent on any road..)

 

1952 legislation allowed operated military vehicles to run under Special Types authorisation, but they had to be under the control of the Military.

 

The only quirky thing is that Mack N.M.'s were given permission to be used for snowploughing, grit or salt distribution only, and this legislation came into force in 1951. No other wider ex military vehicle was authorised for snowploughing, the Mack being named in the legislation specifically my Maker and Model.

 

So really you don't know how good things are now compared to the just post war era!!! There was absolutely no way you could run a quad/ limber/ 25 pounder in 1953, and I believe this has remained so for the last 57 years!

 

Incidentally, in 1953 the definition of a "permanently attached" trailer was "the trailer can only be detached...by an operation involving the use of facilities which are normally only found in a workshop." (bolting/unbolting Gun and limber to make a single braked trailer was not an option, even in those days.)

Edited July 11, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

This prayer may be applicable to those who give "legal" advice on here

 

I don't pray, neither do I believe in Santa Claus or the tooth Fairy, so sorry I can't see any prayer applicable to me!

[antarmike]

Why is it that a quad 25 pounder and limber has to fit into curent law when it was designed and built in 30/40s? The law dos cater for Traction engines and there is provisions wthin the law for changes to driving licenices (Grandfarher Rights), as dos driving pre 1960 HGVs, The way I see it The Quad could be classed has a people carrier the 25 pounder is a gun not a trailer and the limber is a trailer, so on the road the quad can tow the limber and the 25 pounder would be carried on a low loader to the display, just a thought! Persoaly I would like to see the Quad, 25 pounder and Limber has one unit on the road has I think its a great set up and I would like to think that the enfources of the laws would also and treat it as what it is. Just my Thoughts

Al

 

Traction engines comply with current road law. Pre 1960 HGV's comply with current law..

 

If a Quad is a "People Carrier" , it cannot be either a Motor tractor or a Locomotive, therefore it can only tow one trailer.

The Gun is a trailer.

Edited July 11, 2010 by antarmike