andym Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I'd suggest the best option is a good filter of about 10 microns fitted to the fuel filler pipe. Will take for ever to fill but should avoid anything nasty going into the tank. But isn't the problem not what goes into the tank, it's what it does once it's in there? A filter won't stop the bio-bits entering in the first place, methinks? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruubber Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Very interesting thread, that is the clearest definition of what can use cherry Ive ever seen. Looks like my mj thats reg. as foresestry tractor CANT use cherry on way to shows etc. Bummer!!!!! Taxman wins again. Isle of Skye to kent W+P show at 15 mpg is gonna cost me an arm and a leg!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruubber Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Thats the best explaination Ive read on use of cherry on the road. Was looking into it for my forestry tractor registered mj to get from Isle of Skye to kent for the W+Peace show, looks like white all the way at 15mpg! Dont tell the misseus:undecided: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Might be cheaper to put the old girl on the back of a low-loader or beaver tail etc. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 But isn't the problem not what goes into the tank, it's what it does once it's in there? A filter won't stop the bio-bits entering in the first place, methinks? Andy That's a big concern for me as, due to having to be low-loader everywhere, the OT only goes out a couple of times a year. So if I buy 500 litres of the red stuff (seems to be the minimum order for most firms) it will be in my tanks for a couple of years. Fuel system has three in-line filters but I don't want those and possibly the injectors being gunged up!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) Exactly. I'll let you know what I find out about tank additives this week via a major tractor main dealer which has taken the lead around my area in finding solutions to this quite serious problem for infrequent use vehicles. It isn't two years that's the problem - anything in a vehicle over a few months old has the potential to cause major headaches, especially if the tank and lines are exposed to climate / weather likely to cause condensation in the system. Also note it is possible to get red diesel delivered in 200l drums. Edited June 16, 2012 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Exactly. I'll let you know what I find out about tank additives this week via a major tractor main dealer which has taken the lead around my area in finding solutions to this quite serious problem for infrequent use vehicles. Thanks Tony, that could be very interesting.:thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogmaner Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 There seems to some confution over the difrance between red and road diesel ,Bar marine red all diesel now containes the same bio content with the red die and tracer been added as the fuel is ladded into the tanker for delivery to the customer.The problem with filters is that some of the older paper types brake up due to the bio content ,will ask the supplyer at work if there is a list of the types to change for newer units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FEC Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Have read through this thread and agree with all the folk who say don't mess with fuel tax. 25 years in the Ministry, I have taken part and witnessed the out come of chancing the flexible interpretation of red fuel usage. Vehicles have the Queens hand placed upon them, the premises where they are kept are searched, the records of fuel purchases are examined in detail (the outcome is always on the Queen's side). The vehicles owned or associated with the vehicle keeper are tested and will have ma'am's mitt pass over them. When all is finished you will pay a fine, negotiate the return of vehicles, which will have a cost because they are not yours any more, recovery and storage costs and back revenue for the estimated avoidance of revenue. Speculation on the flexibility of the regulations is suicide and beware of nice guys from the emerald isles who offer you diesel even though it comes with plausible paperwork. I have seen many reputable vehicle operators loose there livelihood and some of the vehicles they have cared for, for many years, gone because of the desire to save a few bob. I don't agree with the taxation system for fuel products but cannot emphasise more the advice (Don't Chance It). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Have read through this thread and agree with all the folk who say don't mess with fuel tax. 25 years in the Ministry, I have taken part and witnessed the out come of chancing the flexible interpretation of red fuel usage. Vehicles have the Queens hand placed upon them, the premises where they are kept are searched, the records of fuel purchases are examined in detail (the outcome is always on the Queen's side). The vehicles owned or associated with the vehicle keeper are tested and will have ma'am's mitt pass over them. When all is finished you will pay a fine, negotiate the return of vehicles, which will have a cost because they are not yours any more, recovery and storage costs and back revenue for the estimated avoidance of revenue. Speculation on the flexibility of the regulations is suicide and beware of nice guys from the emerald isles who offer you diesel even though it comes with plausible paperwork. I have seen many reputable vehicle operators loose there livelihood and some of the vehicles they have cared for, for many years, gone because of the desire to save a few bob. I don't agree with the taxation system for fuel products but cannot emphasise more the advice (Don't Chance It). That's why I asked HMRC directly - and got their answer in writing (albeit in e-mail form). After my experiences with VOSA everything is now in writing, I'll never trust a Gov't agency on the phone again. @N.O.S. - That research into the affects on additives and filters will be interesting as is the info on the 200(205?) litre drums... I'll make some inquiries... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Are you sure about this? Isn't the problem here the EU legislation which came into force 1st Jan 2011 saying you cannot use diesel with sulphur content higher than 10ppm in non-road mobile machinery? So any red diesel which is lower than 10ppm gets bio fuel added in, leaving the red diesel which is +10ppm for marine use? So you cannot legally use the non - bio fuel diesel in plant? I hope I'm wrong, but I have a horrible feeling this is the case - I'll find out next week :cool2: Sorry for any delay, My point was as far as I'm aware you can use marine red for plant as long as it's not used on the highway, It's possible that on a commercial basis there is some means for regulation,but not as far as I'm aware and I really can't see how 'they' can enforce what fuel is used in a non regulated environment. (eg if I was operating my tank or old tractor in my field (if I had either :embarrassed:) I would be very surprised if HMRC could or would be able or want to dip my fuel) Certainly we use marine red for our plant (admitedly they are boat hoists and forklifts) and we have HMRC on site on and off for a number of reasons including collecting the fuel declaration forms boat owners are now obliged to complete and from time to time dipping tanks and nothing's come to light yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) I don't have the EU directive reference to hand, but what it says is that you can no longer use the higher sulphur content gas oil for non-road mobile machinery (this basically covers everything with a diesel engine, including inland waterway vessels). As you suggest, without rigorous enforcement that in itself would not be a problem - were it not for the fact that all the low sulphur red diesel now has bio blended in, leaving only the marine grade (high sulphur) red diesel free of bio. I'm not sure about white diesel - does this too all have 7% bio? If they'd just stick all the available bio crap in the high sulphur marine diesel we'd all be a lot better off thank you and any environmental benefit of using bio would remain the same (and the marine systems are generally large enough scale to cope with the bio). Sadly, half-baked plans and legislation make for disaster, or at the very least drastically increased operating costs for us all. Who dreams all this rubbish up? Nobody who has to deal with the consequences that's for sure! If it has to be done then why can't we do it in a timely and considered way - that means thinking about the consequences and engineering potential problems out BEFORE enforcing this kind of control. Edited June 18, 2012 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Sorry for any delay, My point was as far as I'm aware you can use marine red for plant as long as it's not used on the highway, It's possible that on a commercial basis there is some means for regulation,but not as far as I'm aware and I really can't see how 'they' can enforce what fuel is used in a non regulated environment. (eg if I was operating my tank or old tractor in my field (if I had either :embarrassed:) I would be very surprised if HMRC could or would be able or want to dip my fuel) Certainly we use marine red for our plant (admitedly they are boat hoists and forklifts) and we have HMRC on site on and off for a number of reasons including collecting the fuel declaration forms boat owners are now obliged to complete and from time to time dipping tanks and nothing's come to light yet. My understanding is that you could use red in plant as above provided that the plant CANNOT be used on the highway rather than simply isn't being used on the highway. I.e., if it is registered for road use and taxed, than the fact that it isn't being used on the highway simply isn't enough because you could drive out of the gate onto the highway. If it is unregistered or untaxed/SORNed, then you can. But of course I may be wrong! Also, I think that the descriptions of excepted vehicles differ from the C&U descriptions; for example, I have an Iron Fairy which is to all intents and purposes a mobile crane. However it doesn't fit the C&U classification of a Mobile Crane (since it doesn't have suspension IIRC) but does fit the of Engineering Plant (I am working from memory so my wording may not be precise). As far as I know the excepted vehicle classification of Mobile Crane is self-contained not based on C&U and therefore my IF is one of the few non-agricultural vehicles which can still use red on the road. Not that it actually goes on the road! So it can be taxed as Historic Vehicle, registered as Engineering Plant, and operated as far as fuel duty is concerned as a Mobile Crane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 My understanding is that you could use red in plant as above provided that the plant CANNOT be used on the highway rather than simply isn't being used on the highway. I.e., if it is registered for road use and taxed, than the fact that it isn't being used on the highway simply isn't enough because you could drive out of the gate onto the highway. If it is unregistered or untaxed/SORNed, then you can. But of course I may be wrong! Also, I think that the descriptions of excepted vehicles differ from the C&U descriptions; for example, I have an Iron Fairy which is to all intents and purposes a mobile crane. However it doesn't fit the C&U classification of a Mobile Crane (since it doesn't have suspension IIRC) but does fit the of Engineering Plant (I am working from memory so my wording may not be precise). As far as I know the excepted vehicle classification of Mobile Crane is self-contained not based on C&U and therefore my IF is one of the few non-agricultural vehicles which can still use red on the road. Not that it actually goes on the road! So it can be taxed as Historic Vehicle, registered as Engineering Plant, and operated as far as fuel duty is concerned as a Mobile Crane. Bottom line is i can think of no reason why anyone on this forum should think they are exempt from paying road fuel duty for private use or attending shows when using public roads. Nobody could care a less when actually using what ever off road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 That's a big concern for me as, due to having to be low-loader everywhere, the OT only goes out a couple of times a year. So if I buy 500 litres of the red stuff (seems to be the minimum order for most firms) You can get 205 litres here http://www.crownoil.co.uk/reddiesel.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooTallMike Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 You can get 205 litres here http://www.crownoil.co.uk/reddiesel.php You could if they replied to their automated enquiry forms. I have now spoken to three forum members who have all been ignored after filling in the form. - MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 You could if they replied to their automated enquiry forms. I have now spoken to three forum members who have all been ignored after filling in the form. - MG Filled the form in last night Mike - got a phone call today. Quoted price was 74.5p/litres and they would either deliver in 205 litre barrels which gives the small problem of getting it into the OT's fuel tank(s) or 500 litre tanker drop. They are checking with the local supplier to see if their tankers have the adapters to pump direct into the OT's fuel filler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 which gives the small problem of getting it into the OT's fuel tank(s) http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/205-litre-rotary-transfer-pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Crown Oil usually pesters me at least once a month on my answerphone. When I wanted something last weekend they couldn't be bothered ringing me back.... Go figure that one out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/205-litre-rotary-transfer-pump That will mean pumping into jerry cans - twenty and a quarter, hauling them up on top and pouring into the filler with attendant spillage - unless a very long flexi pipe can be rigged from the pump spout to the tank. Even so - shifting 2 x 205 litres like that will not be unlike using the hand genny on Clansman batteries - bl**dy knackering....... :wow: :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike65 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 That will mean pumping into jerry cans - twenty and a quarter, hauling them up on top and pouring into the filler with attendant spillage - unless a very long flexi pipe can be rigged from the pump spout to the tank. Even so - shifting 2 x 205 litres like that will not be unlike using the hand genny on Clansman batteries - bl**dy knackering....... :wow: :-D Neil Not sure what would happen with diesel but you could try something like this that would run with a cordless drill. http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cpp3000-drill-powered-water-pump Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I think fuel transfers need a special spec of safety pump don't they, or is that for petroleum transfers only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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