question Pink diesel

[cosrec]

HELLO ANYBODY IN dont think some of you guys are reading this right when you are on private property eg off a public highway you can run on what ever fuel you want you just cant use non duty paid fuel to ride to and from event on public road

[N.O.S.]

HELLO ANYBODY IN dont think some of you guys are reading this right when you are on private property eg off a public highway you can run on what ever fuel you want you just cant use non duty paid fuel to ride to and from event on public road

 

Nice try But well summed up. There's just the issue of those few rally field events which might be regarded by the organisers as 'public highway regulations apply' for purposes of vehicle control and safety - but I guess since the red diesel thing can be only enforced by HMRC and they are only interetsed in the 'actual' and not the 'virtual' public highway, this is not going to be a problem.

[fv1609]

I think what the poster meant was they were dipping as they came through the gates after being on a public road.

 

This was about 250yds inside the entrance, what I witnessed was the dipping of vehicles driven there. I was told they were doing tractors as well, but did not witness that myself.

 

These vehicle checks were being done to traders & exhibitors vehicles well off the public highway & was the day before the show opened to the public.

[LoggyDriver]

If I owned a tractor that was never used on public roads and decided to trailer it to a show and then when I turned up, HMRC were there waiting to dip my tank, then what are they trying to prove? If you have trailered the tractor to the event you have not committed any offence.

 

As you use the tractor on private land, again you have committed no offence.

 

Also it is perfectly legal to have a road registered tractor and use it on a public highway with red diesel if you are using it to access another part of your land and in order to do that, drive on the public highway.

 

In order for someone to be caught committing an offence they need to be caught in the act. In the red diesel case they need to be caught using it on a public highway without a valid exemption. Trailering in a tractor to a show is not committing an offence and therefor the HMRC would have no grounds to nick you.

[cosrec]

talking to a revenue officer yesterday while working

His own personal opinion of a public road/highway/place was land maintained at goverment expence.

His only knowledge of an agricutural vehicle getting dipped was a tractor dressed up as a steam train that travelled a short distance on a public road and charging passengers for rides. Although he didnt know the outcome

he had worked at one of the steam fairs on the NE circuit but had never targeted agricultural vehicles.

He did say old non company registered landrovers are allways worth a try if nothing else is about

[berna2vm]

Don't ever be seduced by the attractive costs of 'low price' fuels.I was buying 'diesel' from some tanker drivers. I was dipped in my absence and returned to find my Mercedes van 'stolen'

The ba**ards had found traces of kerosene in the fuel and impounded the van. This cost over £1000 to retrieve . Retribution was swift when I found out who had grassed me, seeing me fill the van from drums. The 'recovery' company who charged me an extortionate rates for taking my van 20 miles against my will received more pain than it was worth (out of business within 12 months !). But none of this got me my money back.

In short, DON'T EVER USE IT ON THE ROAD !!!

[Tugger]

It's pretty much all been covered already but to clear up the marine side of it if anyone's interested,

 

Red diesel is still available and is sold to private and commercial vessels.

 

Private vessels are allowed to declare how much will be used for propulsion and hence dutied at a higher rate. They are allowed to declare a percentage to be used for heating or running generators, this is at the old rate of duty as it's classed for heating not propulsion. We (the supplier) then have to send in these declarations to HMRC at the end of the month and thet will follow up any as they wish...which they haven't and I doubt ever will.

 

Commercial vessels are still allowed to buy and use red diesel as before (ie at the lowere duty rate) but must declare in the same way as above that they are commercial users and we again send in these declarations.

 

 

On the road (again as mentioned previously) you may use red diesel to power a road vehicle as long as road duty has been paid at your local HMRC office where they will issue a certificate to that end. Then don't leave home without it!

Edited July 4, 2010 by Tugger

[radiomike7]

Thanks Tugger, you have confirmed what I was saying in post 18, not that anyone believed me:-D

[Tugger]

Out of experience, HMRC will query any reason to accept duty on red diesel as there should not really be a need to use it on the road, the only time I've known of it was during the fuel strike all those years ago when a couple of folk at work used it to get about and had to cover themselves legally if they got stopped.

[ArtistsRifles]

Updating this thread - I recently contacted HMRC about the ability to use red diesel in historic MV's.

I informed them my vehicle (the OT-90) was NOT road registered so was moved by low-loader from storage site to show site and whilst at the shows was used to demonstrate the vehicle to the public either free form or as part of an historic re-enactment. And at no time was I recompensed for the fuel used.

This is their reply:

Dear Sir

Further to your e-mail enquiry regarding use of Red Diesel

in events on private land.

I have referred your enquiry to Policy.

 

They have advised that Notice 75 section 8.2 contains the information required. This confirms that “A vehicle that is not used on the public road and has no licence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 is an excepted vehicle.”. The section also refers to the SORN requirements.

 

Your letter states that the vehicle is not registered for road use.

If you mean that it is not licensed for road use and assuming that the vehicle never uses a public road during the events described and complies with the SORN requirements, it would qualify as an excepted vehicle and be able to use red diesel.

 

I must emphasise that the advice given is based on the information you supplied. If the nature of the transaction changes in technical detail, or the relevant details provided were incomplete or incorrect, we will not be bound by this ruling.

 

Yours faithfully,

<name removed>

HM Revenue & Customs

Customs, International Trade & Excise

Website: www.hmrc.gov.uk/contactus

 

So -as I guess VOSA will never admit their error and allow the OT to be road registered - it would seem I can use red diesel and cut my fuel bill by approx 30%.

This should be of interest to any one with a vehicle that cannot be registered and which uses a diesel or multi-fuel engine.

[N.O.S.]

And have fun draining the fuel system completely down after each and every outing (or more accurately refilling and bleeding the system before use each time) - for how else are you going to eliminate the problems caused by 7% bio diesel in red diesel now?

 

I'm about to look at additives - it isn't the storage tank that worries me with regard to condensation, but the vehicles which hold the diesel as some of them only get used very 6 to 9 months or so.

 

Apparently you can still get non-bio added red but it is only for marine use and it is allegedly illegal to use it in off road vehicles / plant.

 

What a glorious f*** up by all those involved in this wonderful bit of legislation. Perhaps they'd like to come and refill and bleed my machines each time? Thought not.....

[Tugger]

Apparently you can still get non-bio added red

True

 

but it is only for marine use

Not True...just increasingly dificult to find

 

and it is allegedly illegal to use it in off road vehicles / plant.

Again Not True

 

With ref the last point, in general if you know you won't be operating it on public highways you can use red... you can use old socks and jellyfish if you can get them to burn.

[david56]

I have often wondered if I could buy a 50gall drum of red fill arrive at Dover ferry port almost empty.

Fill with red in Calais drive to italy and use all the red until it ran out then refill with white making sure that the tank was full with white when leaving Calais.

 

If I was stopped here the tank would be full of white diesel but it seems that this would not be worth the aggro.

 

Plan foiled

[N.O.S.]

True

 

Not True...just increasingly dificult to find

 

Again Not True

 

With ref the last point, in general if you know you won't be operating it on public highways you can use red... you can use old socks and jellyfish if you can get them to burn.

 

Are you sure about this?

 

Isn't the problem here the EU legislation which came into force 1st Jan 2011 saying you cannot use diesel with sulphur content higher than 10ppm in non-road mobile machinery?

 

So any red diesel which is lower than 10ppm gets bio fuel added in, leaving the red diesel which is +10ppm for marine use? So you cannot legally use the non - bio fuel diesel in plant?

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a horrible feeling this is the case - I'll find out next week :cool2:

[paulbrook]

Never mind all this pink diesel - I pumped some decidedly dodgy dark maroon and prehistoric goo out of the tanks of Antar 1 yesterday. Still the steam cleaner seemed happy enough with it thus saving me quite a few english pounds. Happy days.

[ArtistsRifles]

And have fun draining the fuel system completely down after each and every outing (or more accurately refilling and bleeding the system before use each time) - for how else are you going to eliminate the problems caused by 7% bio diesel in red diesel now?

 

I'm about to look at additives - it isn't the storage tank that worries me with regard to condensation, but the vehicles which hold the diesel as some of them only get used very 6 to 9 months or so.

 

Apparently you can still get non-bio added red but it is only for marine use and it is allegedly illegal to use it in off road vehicles / plant.

 

What a glorious f*** up by all those involved in this wonderful bit of legislation. Perhaps they'd like to come and refill and bleed my machines each time? Thought not.....

 

How much bio-diesel is in ordinary white diesel these days???

[Tony B]

Remebering it's Russian Military, should run on anything flammable. I've (Touch wood) never had any problems with any fuel from anywhere in Europe I've stuck in the Dodges, or the 101 for that matter. How does the local fish and chip shop dispose of it's waste oil?

[ArtistsRifles]

Remebering it's Russian Military, should run on anything flammable. I've (Touch wood) never had any problems with any fuel from anywhere in Europe I've stuck in the Dodges, or the 101 for that matter. How does the local fish and chip shop dispose of it's waste oil?

 

I can't get a definitive answer as to whether the UDT-20 engine was multi-fuel or not Tony - until I do I'm not going to risk anything in there other than diesel..... Cost too much if I get it wrong!!!

[Tony B]

I can't get a definitive answer as to whether the UDT-20 engine was multi-fuel or not Tony - until I do I'm not going to risk anything in there other than diesel..... Cost too much if I get it wrong!!!

 

I see your point and agree, what I meant was any bio fuel content shouldn't bother the old beast. Back just after the horse and cart days we used to sling a gallon of parraffin or petrol to ten gallons of red in the tractors during winter to prvent waxing.

[N.O.S.]

Bio fuel burns fine - you just can't afford to leave it in the system............

Edited June 15, 2012 by N.O.S.

[Tony B]

How come?

[N.O.S.]

How come?

 

It has been discussed at length on here before.

 

Bio fuel produced from crops (the main source for the stuff currently being blended into mineral oil diesel) contains plant cells, if stored in the fuel system for any length of time they feed off microsopic particles of water (condensation in the system in the tank, pipes, filters, pump etc) and multiply. They grow and form fist sized jelly-like donuts in the tank and also very hard growth on smaller components. Eat through filters, you name it.

 

I believe several folk on here have experienced the joys of it at first hand - I'm trying to work out how to avoid the problem (additives etc?) before buying any more bulk diesel.

 

I would imagine that used chip shop oil has been sterilised by the fryer heat? :-D

Edited June 16, 2012 by N.O.S.

[Tony B]

Funnily enough the Russians had the same sort of problems during WW2. The avation fuel had so many contaminants they were loosing more aircraft to that than enemy action. Part of the answer was found to be catalyst slugs in the bulk fuel tanks. I'd query the bit about plant cells. 'Plant cells' are as cells go huge, and how do they survive the processing the fuel goes through?

A dash of Parrafin or petrol should deal with any cells. So should a filter, should also take the water out.

[Lauren Child]

Having just had slime and gunge in the fuel filter and carb, along with one tank of fuel that's pretty well un-usable, I'd say it's a bit of a problem. That's petrol mind you and I'm assuming it was the ethanol/bio content and not some other environmental factor (seems a likely bet)

 

I'm going to try one of the new additives. Can you get those for diesel or are they petrol only?

[Tony B]

So far a problem I've not come up against. There seem to be so many additives now for one thing and another there is hardly room for fuel in the tank! I'd suggest the best option is a good filter of about 10 microns fitted to the fuel filler pipe. Will take for ever to fill but should avoid anything nasty going into the tank. Though, I do have a Broquet catalyst in the tank. I fitted it about ten years ago when I got my Dodge and it's just in there .