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paulob1

Saracen chassis number...where is it...

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Hi Guys.

 

I have an uparmored MK5 and found the registration when I had the fuel tamk removed.

 

With the tank removed it was located under the paint on the floor of the vehicle in the rear right corner of the floor looking over the lip of the rear doors (as a point of referance it is on the floor straight down fromroughly where the gas tank vent tube is located).

 

It contained the reg number of the vehicle, a date (about a year before the"in service" date of the paperwork from Bovie) and some initials and numbers (QA maybe).

 

Hope this helps, I would never had found it if the gas tank had not leaked and had to remove it to fix the leaks. We then sandblasted the floor to repaint it and discovered the stampings!!!

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark

 

Are you saying the military registration number was stamped on the floor?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

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Hi John

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Do you know anything about the contracts that were placed? I have a date in service and a sale number from the MOD but no mil. reg.

 

I would like to narrow it down a bit if I could. Date in service was june 1959.

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Sorry, don't think I can help: Bovie has contract cards but I know they do not have chassis numbers that the ordered vehicles had.

Have you tried Alvis "direct": BAe at Telford had a lot of Coventy's paperwork before Coventry closed down and may have the kind of usually hand written ledger with date completed, engine and chassis number, WD number etc recorded. I found the Ferret ones for my ferret at Jaguar/Daimler while it was still part of BLMC but no idea of present whereabouts of these records. Alternatively you could try the Alvis Fighting Vehicle Society but I believe that they charge quite a lot for any advice/help etc.

Have you seen the post here about the number being under the fuel tank?

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Hi guys,

 

Maybe we should consider making up our own register with all numbers-Chassis and others, history and photos we have got available, starting with something like post 20 or so.

There is a lot of info on this site from knowledgeable people with as many people knowing pieces of the puzzle.

 

What do you think?

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Hi Guys.

 

The registration was actually stamped there.

 

In the course of this restoration we have found the number stamped on all sorts of bits and pieces, we were wondering if some of these were done during the upgrade process ?

 

Mark

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Hi all,

 

Mark, what is the number on the floor or any other info, I would like to include it in the updating of a Saracen registry for interest sake.

 

Please, the same goes for Oily, Paulob, Haybaggerman and all the other owners and guys having any info.

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So far as very early Saracens are concerned, there was the prototype, ALV1 chassis/build no which had a civvi reg no, then the second one was 30BA00, ALV 2 etc. Next batch were in the 82BA to 83BA series, so far as I know, the ALV numbers were allocated in sequence of build but obviously, the Army Reg numbers would only be allocated to ones going to the British Army: any vehicles going elsewhere would have the sequential chassis number but there would be a gap in the Army numbers. After a number of Saracens (maybe 3 or 4 hundred???) Saladins started to be produced. They had the sequential chassis numbers, sort of "numbered as it came out of the factory door" but they might be 10 saracens followed by 5 saladins followed by 20 saracens etc, the War Department numbers following there own sequences as the blocks for saracen and saladins being separately allocated. Later stalwarts started coming out.........

After building, during their 40 odd years of use, each vehicle would have been rebuilt several times and would frequently come out as a different mark, uparmoured, different wiring, different use etc so looking now, you will list Mk2 then 5 then acp, then mk3 then ambulance etc whereas they would all have been built as Mk 1 then changing to Mk 2 then to Mk 3 etc as they came from Coventry.

I have a Mk 1 (30BA10, Alv 12) an uparmoured Mk5 ambulance (no number visible, cannot remember WD number but is either 82 or 83BA** (am at work at present!), a saladin which I think is 01CC70??, chassis about Alv 475ish and another Saladin on long term loan which has no chassis plate but is 06BB90

I found the info about the escape doors useful (will look myself now!) but the "06" chassis number is either from 30BA04 or possibly it is chassis number ALV1006 but they did not bother to stamp the first two digits which I have seen on other vehicles: my tank is chassis number M1022 but the bits are all marked "22" except one which has "1022" in full.

 

 

Hi John,

 

I am urgently searching for a photo of your Saracen, have you posted any, please? If not, please do so, I am updating the registration list with photos. Still have a long way to go but have to start somewhere. The other info you sent has has already been captured.

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Hi John,

 

I am urgently searching for a photo of your Saracen, have you posted any, please? If not, please do so, I am updating the registration list with photos. Still have a long way to go but have to start somewhere. The other info you sent has has already been captured.

 

Sorry I can spin a spanner but not post pics! (No idea how to do it!)

It was in Military Machine International a few months ago (old pic!) or I could send you a photo. Do you want one of my ambulance as well?

Is your register available?

Cheers

John

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Sorry I can spin a spanner but not post pics! (No idea how to do it!)

It was in Military Machine International a few months ago (old pic!) or I could send you a photo. Do you want one of my ambulance as well?

Is your register available?

Cheers

John

 

Hi John,

 

Any photos are welcome. It is actually quite easy to post the pics once they are on your computor. Can you get somebody to scan them in for you and then transfer the scanned pics to your computor? Then we will take it from there.

 

The register was posted here, ( http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16817-Saracen-Build-up/page24 ) I'm still busy updating, so little use to repost now. Once finished, I'll e-mail it to you if you want.

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I can get photo's into the computer easy enough - I use a digital cammera - but it is getting them from there to the forum I don't know how to do.

If I can't do that, I could send you pics by email?

Cheers

John

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I can get photo's into the computer easy enough - I use a digital cammera - but it is getting them from there to the forum I don't know how to do.

If I can't do that, I could send you pics by email?

Cheers

John

 

John, your battle is 90% won! The pics from the camera is too large to upload to the thread though, you need to reduce them in size to around 100-200kB each. There are a couple of ways to do that.

 

I used to copy the pic and paste it on Powerpoint. Once you have sized it to the page, you simply save it to your selected folder in JPEG interchange format. This is the pics that you upload to the thread.

 

I complained to the right person as to how cumbersome this method was and she suggested that I download a small and free Photo resize program "Visualizer Photo Resize". This really makes it simple.

 

Once downloaded, you simply select the folder with photos to resize, click resize and the whole lot is resized and saved in a new Resized folder in the blink of an eye (depending on the amount of pics though) without affecting the original photos.

 

You now select the photo upload button on the "Reply to thread",

 

Select the folder from which to upload from your computor, (I select thumbnails to see which photos), select the photos and then select upload. It takes a while to upload onto the post and voila!

 

I am not good at this but hopefully this helps, best of luck!

Slide1.JPG

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Monty,

Australia had some 28 APC versions of the Saracen. I have listed below the British Registration Numbers, Hull Numbers and Australian Registration Numbers for future reference. There were also a couple of Fitters variants as well which are on your list..

Two numbers are on the list on the you have supplied. 82BA07 and 82BA08.

 

Mine is 81BA97, Hull number 524, ARN. 115378, and is the actual Saracen which I drove during 1969 to 1971. It was a complete fluke that I ended up with MY Saracen. Fortunately I have a photo of me driving it taken in March 1969.

 

 

BRITISH REG NO HULL No AUST REG NO

81BA02.................. 366............... 115366

81BA11 ..................538 ...............115367

81BA78 ..................--- .................115375

81BA80 ..................--- .................115388

81BA81 ..................--- .................115385

81BA83 ..................--- .................115379

81BA84 ..................--- .................115380

81BA85 .................512 ................115364

81BA86 ..................--- .................115381

81BA87 ..................--- .................115382

81BA89 ..................--- .................115383

81BA90.................. --- .................115384

81BA94 .................521 ................115369

81BA95 .................522 ................115365

81BA97 .................524 ................115378 ....................Rick Cove

81BA98 .................525 ................115363

81BA99 .................526................ 115362

82BA01 .................528 ................115361

82BA03 .................530 ................115373

82BA05 .................532 ................115377

82BA07 .................534 ................115368

82BA08 .................535 ................115389

82BA10 .................537 ................115376

82BA12 .................539 ................115387

82BA17 .................544 ................115374

82BA18 .................545 ................115372

82BA19 .................546 ................115390

82BA23 .................561 ................115386

88BA09 .................536 ................115370

88BA13 .................540 ................115371

 

 

Regards Rick.

 

Hi Rick, can you post a(some) pic for inclution in the register, please?

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I looked at 3 of my 4 FV600's at the weekend:

Saracen Mk i APC 30BA10 has chassis number ALV12 on hull and NS 12 nearside escape door but has OS 631 on the offside escape door!

Saladin believed to be 06BB90 has ALV 51 on the hull and OS 51 on the NEARSIDE escape door and nothing visible on the offside escape door. These escape doors have been welded to keep out water when floating but were obviously welded on the wrong way round.

Saladin 07CC70 has ALV 419 on the hull and on the escape doors has NS 419 and OS 419 on the nearside and offside escape doors respectively.

Saracen Mk 5 ambulance 98BA40 (originally built as Mk 2 APC) has no visible chassis number on the hull (as it has been uparmoured) but I have yet to get to see it to check escape door numbers as it is stored 20 miles away.

I was surprised at chassis number of 06BB90: surely Alvis must have made more than 38 chassis between 1952 when ALV12 was built and 1958 when first Saladins appear and when 06BB90 entered service?

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I went to see 98BA40 but it does not help any to understand chassis numbers! It has NS1001 on the offside door and OS 481 on the nearside one! if either is correct then 1001 would seem more likely as 98BA40 is later than the list above of 81BA and 82BA which have chassis numbers of 500 plus but if one do0r has been changed then why not both so both numbers could be wrong!

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With reference to Alvis Hull Numbers Just to throw another possibility - I was inside the Saladin last night having a look round it an contemplating my next move in the restoration process. On the side of the steering assembly, there is a number stamped into the metalwork. This number matches my hull number 1063. Maybe a coincidence ?

 

I checked my escape hatches, and mine say NS/ and O/S but they have two different numbers on them. Given that mine was abroad with non english crew there is a high chance that the hatches became mixed up. I seem to remember that one of the numbers is 1041 , which is close enough to 1063 to maybe be from the same build sequence?

 

Also found a .22 bullet trapped behind some conduit. Odd........

 

Anyoine else have a hull number stamped into the steering ?

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Fugly, do you mean a .22 'shellcase'? I seem to remember using a sleeved down bolt action rifle on a 'compensator bracket' on top of the turret when practicing on the FMR (Firing Miniature Range?) It is 36 years ago now tho, but it Might explain the .22 case.

Edited by ChasSomT.
36yrs, not 26, doesn't time fly?

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Fugly, do you mean a .22 'shellcase'? I seem to remember using a sleeved down bolt action rifle on a 'compensator bracket' on top of the turret when practicing on the FMR (Firing Miniature Range?) It is 36 years ago now tho, but it Might explain the .22 case.

 

 

 

I have found numerous .30 shellcases in the hull of the Saladin, and expect to find more empty cases when I finish stripping it. The FMR sounds very probable, and I have heard about these before. My friend is an ex 10th Hussar and he told me about these ranges , but I never made the link to the .22 connection until you mentioned it.

 

Thanks for the info.:-)

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Just heard back from a friend in Oman and he has provided me with 2 chassis number off Saladins :

 

He says.

 

"Found the Nos at last after chipping off forty years of paint, the two in the workshop are 1137 and 1140 and will get the last one as soon as I can,will have a look at the Ferrets this week." :-)

 

Am not sure yet if these are off two different vehicles or two numbers that appear on one vehicle (i.e one on the hull and one off the escape hatch....)

 

Either way it would suggest that these vehicles may have been built at a similar time? And these vehicle (or parts of) went to Oman and did not return.

 

 

 

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Hi Rick, can you post a(some) pic for inclution in the register, please?

 

Montie, here is a recent photo of my poor old girl. I don't know if I said or not, but this is the actual one I drove from 1969 to 1971. (It still has my name scratched in the right forward outside locker.) With only 28 in Australia, I had a one in twenty eight chance of getting the right one.

 

During 1971 I was on exercise in the Little Desert south of Nhill, Victoria, with the 4th/19th Prince of Wales's Light Horse and the gearbox was playing up and it was taken away for repair. I didn't know what happened to her but later found out that she nextt appeared around 1973 in Victory Park in Shepparton Victoria with the left back door removed and all the hatches welded up for the kids to climb on and in. The engine and radiator was removed by the local shire for later use as a pump engine or such. After a multi death shooting episode at Port Arthur in Tasmania in 1998, quite a few Shires removed any thing connected with guns etc. from their parks including this Saracen. Colin Anderson from Shepparton obtained it and onsold it to me. The Army delivered it to my home on the back of an M113 transport trailer along with a Unimog with the engine and radiator on board. (I had dropped a hint to the WO. of a Army recovery unit that it might be a good training exercise to recover a dead Saracen and deliver it to my place. The best 2 slabs of beer I have ever bought.) I had it for about 6 months before I was able to confirm that it was my Saracen. (The locker was sealed up and I had not opened it.) My old RSM had photos of her including one of me driving it and showing the ARN 115378.

 

I am in need of a left rear door and the fan covers if someone has some out there. The vehicle needs quite a bit of work to bring it back to use. There are no electrics and the steering pump and accumultator pump are also missing plus a host of smaller items. Oh well! One day we'll get into her and get her back on the road. (We are currently building a new shed for her and then a sandblast will clean her up and we will see some progress.)

 

Hope this helps your records.

 

Regards Rick

P3302002z.JPG

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Montie, here is a recent photo of my poor old girl. I don't know if I said or not, but this is the actual one I drove from 1969 to 1971. (It still has my name scratched in the right forward outside locker.) With only 28 in Australia, I had a one in twenty eight chance of getting the right one.

 

During 1971 I was on exercise in the Little Desert south of Nhill, Victoria, with the 4th/19th Prince of Wales's Light Horse and the gearbox was playing up and it was taken away for repair. I didn't know what happened to her but later found out that she nextt appeared around 1973 in Victory Park in Shepparton Victoria with the left back door removed and all the hatches welded up for the kids to climb on and in. The engine and radiator was removed by the local shire for later use as a pump engine or such. After a multi death shooting episode at Port Arthur in Tasmania in 1998, quite a few Shires removed any thing connected with guns etc. from their parks including this Saracen. Colin Anderson from Shepparton obtained it and onsold it to me. The Army delivered it to my home on the back of an M113 transport trailer along with a Unimog with the engine and radiator on board. (I had dropped a hint to the WO. of a Army recovery unit that it might be a good training exercise to recover a dead Saracen and deliver it to my place. The best 2 slabs of beer I have ever bought.) I had it for about 6 months before I was able to confirm that it was my Saracen. (The locker was sealed up and I had not opened it.) My old RSM had photos of her including one of me driving it and showing the ARN 115378.

 

I am in need of a left rear door and the fan covers if someone has some out there. The vehicle needs quite a bit of work to bring it back to use. There are no electrics and the steering pump and accumultator pump are also missing plus a host of smaller items. Oh well! One day we'll get into her and get her back on the road. (We are currently building a new shed for her and then a sandblast will clean her up and we will see some progress.)

 

Hope this helps your records.

 

Regards Rick

 

Hi Rick,

 

This is/was the info I had on your Saracen; 81BA97 524 115378, Privately owned by Rick Cove

 

 

The pic will help and I will add it to the register (which needs a lot more work!)

 

 

 

 

 

i

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I recently received the cards from Bovington for my Saracen 82BA77, but they list no chassis number. The numbers on my escape hatches are "404".

 

What's weird is that cards list it as MK2, but mine has RFC and would seem to be an MK6. Wouldn't the cards reflect the changeover when vehicle was uparmored?

 

Also strange is the fact that date in service is listed as July 5, 1955, but first activity is from August 22, 1967. Does this mean it just sat for first 12 years of its life? Or perhaps there is a missing card? The latter option seems less probable, since there are 2 cards already, so if one was missing, there would have been 3 cards?

82 BA 77 Vehicle Service Card (1).jpg

82 BA 77 Vehicle Service Card (2).jpg

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It seems that those history cards were only brought in in around '67 or so. I've never seen one dated before that and have no idea what my Saracen did before then. My history cards detail an entry in '74:

Conversion from 0010 6201 to 0030 8201 auth 875.

I believe this to be the Mk 5 upgrade. The form is stamped CARRIER PERSONNEL WHLD APC SARACEN MK2 but has been amended, in pen at 2 different times, to read CARRIER PERSONNEL WHLD APC AMBULANCE ROLE MK5.

 

As an aside 115 379 is the Australian army Saracen at my club's museum.

 

Montie: I did a little bit of digging and it seems that, for some reason, British vehicles manufactured for foreign militaries are allocated British VRNs, but little to no records are kept of them (outside of the sales contracts in some government vault somewhere, probably), so Bovington and the like will not be of any help.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Hi Guys

Great reading and info on these APC's, I'm learning a lot ..

Tho i do have a question, my Mk6 has a rego number of 06FF42

I have the log books and like others it starts in 74, some work done on it in the 80's and early 90's, lots of engine and gear box servicing and upgrades.  I can see entries from Ireland in the 70's and Hong Kong in the 80's and 90's

as i only purchased it yesterday its yet to be delivered, so i will check numbers inside later.

cheers

Ted

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Ted,

Your vehicle will have been allocated that number when it was uparmoured in the 70s so you won’t be able to find out the earlier history.

Chris

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Hi Chris

Thanks very much for the info, you guys are a great wealth of knowledge.

cheers

Ted

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On ‎5‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:42 PM, sirhc said:

Ted,

Your vehicle will have been allocated that number when it was uparmoured in the 70s so you won’t be able to find out the earlier history.

Chris

Not true. The VRN was allocated at, or near, the time of manufacture, however, a number of Saracen Mk 6 (with VRNs in the FF range) were new-builds, intended for a foreign sale to the Middle East. For some reason, that deal fell through and they were diverted, still painted in desert tan, to NI and pressed into service there. These vehicles are (probably) the last Saracens built and have a number detail changes which mean that they are probably some of the best out there.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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