USAAF Correct Shade Olive Drab?

[N.O.S.]

Here is part of a WW2 image which kind of knocks into a cocked hat the idea that there is only one correct shade of O.D.!

 

The full image photo is available on ebay (photo of B-17 landing somewhere in Europe):

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Photo-B-17-Fortress-Landing-England-Ambulance-ETO-ww2-/220601979175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335ce71127

[N.O.S.]

But what about the colour of the ambulance crews' uniform?

[shopnut]

Picture was taken at Ridgewell, Essex, 381st Bomb Group.

This picture was going to be recreated, be nice to see that happen.

[N.O.S.]

That's interesting, Robert. The photo is obviously well known to you. The odd uniform colour could be put down to the variable nature of colour photography, but the diference between greens on the ambulances cannot be doubted.

[Jessie The Jeep]

Films of the time were red sensitive, so pictures are often over exposed and colours shifted towards red/browns. On aircraft, factory fresh olive drab was a very dark green, but exposed to ultra-violet radiation ( especially in high altitude flight ) caused the green to fade rapidly to a purple/brown colour. The difference is most noticeable on older aircraft that have flak patches touched in with fresh OD. Paint of the time wasn't as colour fast as todays paints.

 

Vehicles will also fade in the sun, although not as fast due to the lower altitudes they operate at!! One ambulance may have been on base a couple of years, the other new or recently repainted.

 

There are as many shades of OD as days in the war.

[Jessie The Jeep]

The darker ambulance also appears to have more of a satin finish as there is more of a sheen reflecting off the screen frame compared to the lighter vehicle which looks much more matt.

[N.O.S.]

The darker ambulance also appears to have more of a satin finish as there is more of a sheen reflecting off the screen frame compared to the lighter vehicle which looks much more matt.

 

Just what I thought - quite relieved about that in fact

[P Marriott]

As you say too many shades to count, as long as it's green!!!

 

Just taken M6 fuel filter off and cleaner newer paint off with thinners to find the original 'AC Disc Filter Type T2' decal which is on top of dark OD as ambulance in the famous picture.

 

HELP! HELP!

 

Slight issue now do I use the lighter/browner shade as i was planing or use original dark OD N01?????

 

What colour are you using Tony??

[N.O.S.]

The M6 is like the nearest ambulance, but maybe even slightly darker - just like Lindy Lou in fact. The new arrival is like the ambulance at the back - and that looks good too.

 

Confused just like you! But the answer I think Paul is use the one you like best!

[shopnut]

That's interesting, Robert. The photo is obviously well known to you. The odd uniform colour could be put down to the variable nature of colour photography, but the diference between greens on the ambulances cannot be doubted.

 

Yes the photo is well known to me, Clive was the one talking about recreating this photo, would it be possible to find 2 WC54's to match those colours though?

 

If you drive the road from Ashen to Clare, a small back road, its easy to see that background, if I ever drive that way, it reminds me of this picture, in fact I have driven that road just for that purpose!!, sad or what.

[N.O.S.]

Not at all, makes an intersting challenge to recreate an old photograph!

[Chris Warne]

Ah, the 'holy grail' US WW2 OD is what you seek?

 

It doesn't exist. Let me explain........

Around 2006, whilst restoring my first MV (1945 Willys MB) I too wanted the correct colour OD. On another forum (g503.com) a 20+ page topic started up, courtesy of myself, to try and find the right colour. To cut a very long story short, spray painted samples of all the main OD paints (3-4 of the most commonly used US paints, Tony Sudds/Gustav Desmet Mat1, Batistis OD, Jeep club of New Zealand OD, reconstituted original ww2 OD marked USAAF, etc, etc....)were sent to a guy in Australia, well known for his jeep and speedo restorations. He (Sean) had 30+ original NOS parts, many never having seen the light of day (still in dated wrapping) and he proceeded to photograph the samples and NOS items alongside eachother. This is the only way to get a like for like comparison to see the differences, mainly due to computer monitor colouration differences. In short, the NOS parts showed alot of variation and it was collectively agreed that the Jeep Owners Clud of New Zealand OD was the closest 'average' shade across all samples and NOS items. The president of that club, Al Brass, made up samples of their locally moxed paint and sent them off to a load of people, so they could get it matched locally.

I managed to do this easily, taking the best true flat paint on the UK market (Mat1) and a local paint mixing specialist re-tinted it to match.

That was 2006. Since then, I have aquired NOS toolboxes and other items and the inside OD is as fresh and unmarked as the day it was painted. The colour, hue, tint, flatness etc.... of these items is so close as makes no difference of the paint I had re-tinted.

I recently finished restoring my 1944 Dodge wc51 and went and purchased another batch of Mat1. The retint formula didn't work on this 2009 made paint (although supposedly identical?) as the paint was a slightly different shade and a little lighter. We easily matched it to the JOCoNZ sample and cross checked it to my 2006 paint, but it shows how different batches vary.

In summary, there were many different shades/hues/colours of OD, all dependant on the manufacturer, how it was painted on, temperature, amount of thinners used, etc, etc.... My goal was to imagine if I time warped back to 194x my truck wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb on any airfield or beach, etc... but the absolute bottom line is paint your vehicle the colour YOU like.

[JIM GILMORE]

".....In summary, there were many different shades/hues/colours of OD, all dependant on the manufacturer, how it was painted on, temperature, amount of thinners used, etc, etc.... My goal was to imagine if I time warped back to 194x my truck wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb on any airfield or beach, etc... but the absolute bottom line is paint your vehicle the colour YOU like. ......

 

While I agree with the last part of this post.....I must disagree with the first.

 

Simply put...there was only one "color" of OD paint used on production vehicles in WW II no matter who the manufacturer was .

 

It was "Lusterless Olive Drab" later designated "Lusterless Olive Drab No. 319"

 

Now , I am talking about PRODUCTION. ......not what some GI did in England or Timbucktu......

 

I have spent over 20 years researching Lusterless Olive Drab and have original cans of WW II dated paint. We have had this paint spectrographed and it matches the Govt. spectrograph color standards from WW II.

 

I have original paint chips and color cards and have done extensive research in the National Archives. In addition several other researchers have worked with me and assembled an enormous amount of data on this subject.

 

All paint used by the vehicle manufacturers in WW II had to pass very rigid specifications. Govt. inspectors would NOT accept paint that did not meet these standards..period! All that "there was a war on and they did whatever they had to" is just so much nonsense.

 

The color had to match and there were exact specifications on how to paint, dry and view the samples to make sure the color matched the Govt. specs.

 

The paint manufacturers knew this and took great pains to match the specs because if the paint was not to specs. it would not be accepted (and paid for).

 

Remember, mixing paint is like cooking....once you have determined the final product and the measurements of the components (ingredients ) you simply use the exact same components and measurements each and every time and the final product comes out exactly the same. I have copies of original Ford Motor Co. Paint mixing formulas for their paint...they are in gallon and 1,000 gallon lots. Ford mixed paint in 1,000 gallon batches for the production lines and the exact weights of each and every component is listed on them (paint is mixed by weight and not volume)

 

There is no "early vs late" Lusterless Olive Drab...all were the same color. There were "other" green paints used in WW II ...for the engineers, camouflage, ammo cans and the like but not for production vehicles.

 

The excellent photo at the start of this thread is of two vehicles that have been repainted..where or by who and with what paint is unknown but it is certain that they are not the factory applied paint that they were delivered with...the white numbers are the giveaway....all WW II vehicles were delivered with Blue Drab numbers.

 

I have worked with a US paint producer to help him produce a paint that is absolutely correct and matches the original Lusterless Olive Drab specifications as to color and also matches original WW II L.O.D.

 

If you are interested it is TM-9 products and this paint is Shade No. 8. ( I have no connection to TM-9 except the owner is a friend and fellow researcher)

 

So, if you are restoring a WW II vehicle to original condition then there is only one color paint. If you are "restoring" a vehicle to a "as used..somewhere in WW II" then there could and may be differences in the color of Olive Drab.

 

Oh..and about matching "spare parts" to colors....it must be remembered that replacement parts were often painted with re-claimed paint and color can vary. Willys did this during AND after WW II and the frames on MB's were painted with re-claimed paint.

 

If you match paint to replacement parts..then you can only say that this paint "matches replacement parts"....

 

If you match paint to the original paint, from several manufacturers, and have it matched by spectrograph, compared to the original 3-1 Color Card...then you can say you have matched WW II Lusterless Olive Drab.

 

Of course, if anyone can produce any hard data that refutes this...I would be happy to see it.

[N.O.S.]

.....The excellent photo at the start of this thread is of two vehicles that have been repainted..where or by who and with what paint is unknown but it is certain that they are not the factory applied paint that they were delivered with...the white numbers are the giveaway....all WW II vehicles were delivered with Blue Drab numbers.......

 

Thanks for the information, Jim.

 

What amazes me is that many USAAF vehicles in wartime UK photos look like they've been in use for 10 years or more - their paint is appalling, their condition best described as 'rough', coupled with tyres worn down to the canvas....and all this in only a year or so.

 

I guess the original matt paint lasted only an odd season or two over here, given our wet / dry / hot / cold weather. So repaints must have been a regular job. Could explain the use of what looks like non- matt paint on one of these ambulances? (mind you I know enough not to be misled by old colour photos :cool2:).

[JIM GILMORE]

You are correct about the "life" of Lusterless Olive Drab paint. After 12 to 18 months it would lose it's ability to absorb light..that is to say it's reflectiveness and would become shiny or a semi-gloss. The color was prone to fade as well.

 

Army policy was to repaint the vehicles every year or so.

 

Local commanders had some latitude as to markings and paint in their area and some non-regulation painting will be observed as well as markings or art work on vehicles.

 

Also, AAF paints were a semi-gloss later in the war and this ambulance may have been painted with a semi-gloss paint or perhaps some local procured paint may have been used. In fact...the one ambulance looks like it might have been painted the same green as the camo paint on a Spitfire.....

 

It should be noted that when the Lusterless paint was first issued many units were using wax and buffing to try to get this paint to shine!

 

Army Motors had an article on this paint telling the soldiers NOT to wax it or buff it as it was supposed to be a dead flat finish and not gloss like the pre-war paint OD # 22.

 

Here is a WW II color chip for the AAF Olive Drab.....which was a semi-gloss paint.

[N.O.S.]

So was the AAF VEHICLE O.D. the same shade as AIRCRAFT O.D.?

[JIM GILMORE]

The color card I have posted is not the same shade as the Lusterless Olive Drab used on vehicles as it was a semi-gloss finish.

 

I do not know at this time if the early OD for aircraft was the same as for the vehicles. The paint was different but I do not have enough data on the colors in front of me right now.

 

Jim

[abn deuce]

I agree with the TM8 being the exact match to shade of O.D. paint used by at least the parts suppliers in the 40's as the NOS parts I removed from their original wrappings match that color to the best of my ability to judge it , these being a black out head light , a mirror and mirror support arm .

[N.O.S.]

One thought here, Jim - when the USAAF planes based in England changed from O.D. to bright aluminium, the stocks of semi-gloss O.D. held locally could well have been utilised for vehicle repaint jobs where the lustreless finish was not so essential (not being front line).

[Chris Warne]

".....In summary, there were many different shades/hues/colours of OD, all dependant on the manufacturer, how it was painted on, temperature, amount of thinners used, etc, etc.... My goal was to imagine if I time warped back to 194x my truck wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb on any airfield or beach, etc... but the absolute bottom line is paint your vehicle the colour YOU like. ......

 

While I agree with the last part of this post.....I must disagree with the first.

 

Simply put...there was only one "color" of OD paint used on production vehicles in WW II no matter who the manufacturer was .

 

 

Hi Jim, good to see you here instead of the G.

On your point above, I perhaps should have left out 'colours' from my statement as you're quite correct in what you say. There was only 1 govt specified colour for application to vehicles and all manufacturers had to adhere to it.

However, as anyone who's ever restored or painted a MV will confirm, you can spray (we'll refer to this method of application as this was the factory process) paint from the exact same can of fully stirred paint, and get a different 'colour'. When I say colour, of course the true colour is the same, but the perceived/viewed colour can appear different.

There are many factors that affect the perceived/viewed colour - the paint finish (reflected light), temperature, humidity, skill of the person spraying, amount of thinners used, etc...

 

All these things can make different vehicles, or just individual parts/panels look different from eachother, even if painted from the exact same can of paint. The colour (in the technical sense) is undoubtedly the same, but to the human eye they may appear different.

 

From a technical viewpoint, every US produced vehicle in WW2 should be identical in colour, regardless of where it was painted, by whom, when or where the paint was manufactured, etc... but this wasn't reality. There are many pictures of vehicles being prepped for overseas shipment, where it can be seen the shade (b&W photos) are close, but in the example I'm thinking of, the Chevy 1.5ton trucks appear a little lighter than the K50 panel vans - when all parked alongside eachother.

 

I would struggle to agree with anyone who claimed every vehicle produced in the US in WW2 was the same colour when painted with OD Lustreless. On paper, according to govt specs, that may have been the goal, but if all the vehicles ever produced (2 million +) had been parked next to eachother, there would have been many hue, shade, and dare I say it 'colour' variations. All close to eachother I'm sure, but not the same.

 

I guess much of this is how you use the word colour - a human eye 'as viewed' or a technical make-up of paint. Of course, the 'colour' is only the light reflected from the surface of the object being viewed, so constantly changing........:shocked:

[Fordartur]

Hi Guys, I'm getting close to the point to paint both 1/4, a January slat Grill MB and an August 42 GPW and well, I did an extensive search on the net and this old thread kept my absolute attention, pity that is old enough.

The fact is that preparing both tubs to sandblast, I removed some items that offered me some spots of true virgin paint (one coat over a yellowish primer). Then I went to my paint supplier and he lend me the RAL chart to compare and see if Could match some and the results in RAL are:

RAL 6003: close but too clear

RAL 6014: close but too brown

RAL 6022: close again but too dark

The rest of the chart was more far after compare one by one.

Due my job I somehow deal with colors and indeed I'm pretty sure that adding some very few black to the 6003 would give us a closer approximation to the original color.

In fact, while I respect all the opinions exposed here, I think that after a tough and careful restoration that is taking me quite a lot effort and dedication, the color match is what will make the difference between to "restore a jeep" or "remanufacture a jeep", I've seen some samples of MAT1 and compared to my slat color match is too clear (bit washed sensation) and too grainy (my slat original sample is somehow satin and smooth, but maybe done to have had attached under quite pressure a feet switch that smooth the original paint) so... still no way to paint and get the satisfaction I'm searching for.

I tried to get paint from the US but not shipping outside so I must stick to a European manufacture, the question is who and where or what reference will be the real match despite personal color tastes or preferences.

A good thing would be if somebody (maybe Mr Gilmore?) that have a true sample and spectrophotometer it, could give us the correlation in CMYK (cyan-magenta-yellow-black) as basis to get a true formulation in Europe.

 

[MatchFuzee]

I'm sure that someone will know the paint that you need and where to buy it.

Difficult to compare colours on a screen but you could look at BS and Federal Standard colours etc. 

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp

[Fordartur]

Thanks for your answer, I was wondering to mess with the RAL 6003 but I've got several cans of MIX 1 (maybe wrong but guess is the more close lusterless effect, Matt but not so grainy but still not satin), so... I guess I got it quite quite close...

I made several samples of MIX 1 with black pigment and the one with 40 parts MIX 1 with 1 part of black pigment is the one more close to any of the clean untouched spots in my slat. I will run another sample batch to stretch the match with 50:1 and 60:1 with and without cyan (playing a bit adding cyan to get a slight blueish effect (deeply slight).

The fact is that after being rechecked plenty of NOS parts, I've found a lot of differences between them and all the paints and tones I've found in the original tubs give us an aged effect... so maybe is true the statement that we're replicating an AGED Olive brown instead of the true manufacture applied tone.

Keep you updated with the results.