question Desert Sand Paint

[LoggyDriver]

Hi Guys,

 

Can anyone tell me what the correct colour code is for Royal Air Force Desert Sand paint please? I need to know what colour paint they used in Operation Granby.

 

Looking at the colour chart BS381C, 380 Camouflage Desert Sand looks far too dark. 361 Light Stone (I think) is the right colour, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Also where is the best place to buy it. I see Anchor Supplies has a stock of Light Stone. Has anyone used or bought paint from Anchor and is it the real gear? I want Satin Finish and it needs to be a single pack Alkyd based paint.

 

 

I am in the process of sanding down my Defender and have decided to paint it in Desert Sand. It was in the first Gulf War in Saudi Arabia and I have seen evidence of the Sand paint whilst sanding it down. I'm using an air orbital sander and will be using a spray gun.

 

Also what's the best primer to use with this paint?

 

Pictures to follow.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Lardrover]

I read that they, or at least some of them, had a unique colour. It was either by design or accident but wasn't what I'd call desert yellow, or sand, or stone, or anything like that. If the paint that you can see really is like a sand colour, and not a muddy purple or grey, then I have some here. It needs a good mix but recovers very well. I did an Armstrong MT500 in it and it was much better than I thought and just like the generic sand colour that suddenly appeared everywhere in the 90's after years of things being green/black. It is genuine paint, Beckers on the worn label but perfectly fine. People have turned their noses up at it because it's not in a bling tin. Problem might be getting it to you but I might be coming down to the Bunker Bash for the day as a visitor. Yours for the entry fee into the Bash

[robin craig]

Ah, the "correct" sand colour eh?

 

Read Bob Morrisons photo essay book on Operation Granby and see the variations in what colours were actually painted. Soldier magazine of the time is also a good reference for colour pictures.

 

Some units did their own others contracted it out. It was very rushed. Some of the more esoteric schemes that come to mind are the Tank Transporter Units whose interpretation earned them the name "the Banana Custards" after a popular brand of custard. How about the Royal Marine Helicopter Support chaps who used a sand and pink tiger stripe.

 

The variations on hues and schemes is wide open Loggy Driver, fill your boots!

 

R

[LoggyDriver]

Ah, the "correct" sand colour eh?

 

Read Bob Morrisons photo essay book on Operation Granby and see the variations in what colours were actually painted. Soldier magazine of the time is also a good reference for colour pictures.

 

Some units did their own others contracted it out. It was very rushed. Some of the more esoteric schemes that come to mind are the Tank Transporter Units whose interpretation earned them the name "the Banana Custards" after a popular brand of custard. How about the Royal Marine Helicopter Support chaps who used a sand and pink tiger stripe.

 

The variations on hues and schemes is wide open Loggy Driver, fill your boots!

 

R

 

 

Thanks Robin,

 

So to make it easier, do you know what they are using today? I like the more Yellow end of the Sand paint rather than the Pink end!!:cool2:

[sirhc]

The desert sand colour is BS381C shade 361, Light Stone.

[ted angus]

I was WO ic GEF at Leuchars as we went to war, the paintshops were part of my empire. initially we were instructed by signal to paint all GSE and MT the same colour as the Tornado bombers and Jaguars. this was Federal Standard 30279 Luckily our tornado fighters were remaing grey for the war !! so doing vehicles and equipment became a main focus. Some years previous the RAF had been doing experiments at Kingsfield landing strip in Cyprus trialling various colours and the conclusion was FS 30279 would be the way forward for aircraft and supporting vehicles etc in any future Mid east event. . As Federal Standard colours are one of the recognised NATO standards we have never given it a BS number.

There was no depot stock and the paint manufacturers were working round the clock to produce the FS 30279 ARTF finish for the aircraft , so we received lengthy signals on mix ratios to achieve the colour. In addition to vehicles we had to paint dozens of ISO size shipping containers that held aircraft drop tanks. At the beginning of a shift we would mix batches of paint in galvanised dustbins. We bought a plaster mixer from a builders merchant to do the mixing. NO 2 batches ever looked the same. Some were sandy, some were really pink, later we got ready mixed stuff.

We then got orders to prep some vehicles which were being allocated to other units and they had to be in BSC 361 Light Stone, The depot stocks of 361 had long been emptied and manufacturers were overwhelmed with orders so again we received lengthy signals detailing mix ratios for Lt Stone. this is where the Banana yellow etc comes in again no 2 batches were the same there just wasn't time for carefull measuring of quantities.

For Gulf war 2 a new colour was used for RAF vehicles and equipment BSC 380 Camouflague Desert sand. It is still the current RAF colour. Attached one of a fleet we did for another unit on the run up to gulf war 2 using BSC 380

Hope this is useful

regards TED

Edited May 6, 2010 by ted angus

[fesm_ndt]

Specific to the yellow colours was the 381C as discussed above but also some vehicles were painted in RAL colours ie RAL 1002 or 1015

 

I found this out when trying to dig up the info on that water based paint they put on, the one that could be supposedly washed off

[alan turner (RIP)]

The air paint for Granby was specially formulated in the chemical labs section of Woolwich Arsenal which at that time was still functioning so would have no BS number. My mums next door neighbours daughter was involved.

[ted angus]

Yes it was indeed, it was alkaline resistant temporary finish, thinned with water and Meth spirit A pig to apply and even worse to remove !! The colour was FS 30279.

 

TED

[LoggyDriver]

I was WO ic GEF at Leuchars as we went to war, the paintshops were part of my empire. initially we were instructed by signal to paint all GSE and MT the same colour as the Tornado bombers and Jaguars. this was Federal Standard 30279 Luckily our tornado fighters were remaing grey for the war !! so doing vehicles and equipment became a main focus. Some years previous the RAF had been doing experiments at Kingsfield landing strip in Cyprus trialling various colours and the conclusion was FS 30279 would be the way forward for aircraft and supporting vehicles etc in any future Mid east event. . As Federal Standard colours are one of the recognised NATO standards we have never given it a BS number.

There was no depot stock and the paint manufacturers were working round the clock to produce the FS 30279 ARTF finish for the aircraft , so we received lengthy signals on mix ratios to achieve the colour. In addition to vehicles we had to paint dozens of ISO size shipping containers that held aircraft drop tanks. At the beginning of a shift we would mix batches of paint in galvanised dustbins. We bought a plaster mixer from a builders merchant to do the mixing. NO 2 batches ever looked the same. Some were sandy, some were really pink, later we got ready mixed stuff.

We then got orders to prep some vehicles which were being allocated to other units and they had to be in BSC 361 Light Stone, The depot stocks of 361 had long been emptied and manufacturers were overwhelmed with orders so again we received lengthy signals detailing mix ratios for Lt Stone. this is where the Banana yellow etc comes in again no 2 batches were the same there just wasn't time for carefull measuring of quantities.

For Gulf war 2 a new colour was used for RAF vehicles and equipment BSC 380 Camouflague Desert sand. It is still the current RAF colour. Attached one of a fleet we did for another unit on the run up to gulf war 2 using BSC 380

Hope this is useful

regards TED

 

 

 

 

 

WOW,

 

Thank you very much Sir!!!

 

Lots of interesting information there. I have to say, the picture you sent of the TM in Camouflage Desert Sand looks a lot lighter in the skin than on the colour chart.

 

I think BSC361 Light Stone it is then. I called Anchor yesterday and they haven't got any Satin in stock. I don't want matt as the paint only lasts a few years. Has anyone used the Marcus Glen Light Stone?

 

 

Thanks for the replies guys.

[LoggyDriver]

Just found this on the web. It gives the exact code for the paints used and it is indeed BS361C Light Stone.

 

 

http://www.dstan.mod.uk/standards/defstans/00/023/00000400.pdf

[ted angus]

WOW,

 

Thank you very much Sir!!!

 

Lots of interesting information there. I have to say, the picture you sent of the TM in Camouflage Desert Sand looks a lot lighter in the skin than on the colour chart.

 

I think BSC361 Light Stone it is then. I called Anchor yesterday and they haven't got any Satin in stock. I don't want matt as the paint only lasts a few years. Has anyone used the Marcus Glen Light Stone?

 

 

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

It certainly does, by the time the photoshoot was done it looked a totally different colour, its all to do with reflectancy, we were abouit an hour taking the shots the cloud was moving quite fast I recall. . I have attached another shot for you. Whilst there is no doubt what so ever about 361, may I offer a word of caution , the Defstan you refer to is current: whilst 361 has been our standard since 1938 when it was simply 61 and no doubt will always figure somewhere in the plans, Current Defstan should never be used is a definative reference other than for the period it is valid, Since GW 1 the Defstan has changed 3 times. In addition the Defstan you quote is for IRR finishes. None of the finishes applied at unit level from locally blended batches had IRR properties, the priority was visual tonedown as opposed to defeating any axis infra red recce capability. However at a later date vehicles were put into IRR. In case your vehicle has had IRR applied When rubbing down please be mindfull that the dust from IRR paint if far more harmful than normal Alkyd based defence equipment Non IRR products.

Good Luck with the project

 

TED p.s. look on Milweb for paint I bought some Gloss DBG from a chap on there great paint !! I will find his name

here he is http://www.milweb.net/dealers/trader/frankburberypaints/index.htm

Edited May 7, 2010 by ted angus

[LoggyDriver]

It certainly does, by the time the photoshoot was done it looked a totally different colour, its all to do with reflectancy, we were abouit an hour taking the shots the cloud was moving quite fast I recall. . I have attached another shot for you. Whilst there is no doubt what so ever about 361, may I offer a word of caution , the Defstan you refer to is current: whilst 361 has been our standard since 1938 when it was simply 61 and no doubt will always figure somewhere in the plans, Current Defstan should never be used is a definative reference other than for the period it is valid, Since GW 1 the Defstan has changed 3 times. In addition the Defstan you quote is for IRR finishes. None of the finishes applied at unit level from locally blended batches had IRR properties, the priority was visual tonedown as opposed to defeating any axis infra red recce capability. However at a later date vehicles were put into IRR. In case your vehicle has had IRR applied When rubbing down please be mindfull that the dust from IRR paint if far more harmful than normal Alkyd based defence equipment Non IRR products.

Good Luck with the project

 

TED p.s. look on Milweb for paint I bought some Gloss DBG from a chap on there great paint !! I will find his name

here he is http://www.milweb.net/dealers/trader/frankburberypaints/index.htm

 

 

 

Thanks very much Ted,

 

I'm not bothered about the IRR properties as obviously I do not need it. So are you saying that if I was to buy 361 from a "normal" paint supplier that it would have IRR built in?

 

I have been using a valved dust mask to FFP3 for the rubbing down, as the paint on the vehicle is indeed IRR. Very nasy stuff as you say.

 

So would any synthetic paint to 361 Light Stone be okay? I looked at a previous post where someone used

 

Protegalac Containergard HS

A high solids, single pack, modified alkyd one coat primer/finish. From Smith and Allan. Would this be acceptible in 361 Light Stone or would a single pack Coach Enamel be better? It would need to be brush/roller/spray type, that can be mixed with White Spirit.

 

 

Thanks

 

Andy

Edited May 7, 2010 by LoggyDriver

[sirhc]

WOW,

I think BSC361 Light Stone it is then. I called Anchor yesterday and they haven't got any Satin in stock. I don't want matt as the paint only lasts a few years. Has anyone used the Marcus Glen Light Stone?

 

 

Don't use the paint from Anchor. I sprayed the Spartan with it as I decided to do it on a weekend and Anchor is only down the road. The paint from Anchor is awful, it absorbs water and fades quickly. Your best bet is to find a local paint supplier, try yell.com and get a batch made to order... It only takes about an hour. If you want it delivered I have used Crosbie Coatings in Birmingham before and the paint and the service are both good. Cromadex also offer a good service, but I really struggled to get the matt paint from them to be anything other than gloss!

 

Chris

[LoggyDriver]

Don't use the paint from Anchor. I sprayed the Spartan with it as I decided to do it on a weekend and Anchor is only down the road. The paint from Anchor is awful, it absorbs water and fades quickly. Your best bet is to find a local paint supplier, try yell.com and get a batch made to order... It only takes about an hour. If you want it delivered I have used Crosbie Coatings in Birmingham before and the paint and the service are both good. Cromadex also offer a good service, but I really struggled to get the matt paint from them to be anything other than gloss!

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Nice one, thanks Chris.

 

I only need a gallon of 361 Light Stone, who would have thought it's so bloomin difficult.

 

I called Automotive Paint Supplies in Newbury. They can mix up Synthetic for me, but they want £78 for 5 litres!!!!!:shocked:

 

Going to try some others.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[ted angus]

Thanks very much Ted,

 

I'm not bothered about the IRR properties as obviously I do not need it. So are you saying that if I was to buy 361 from a "normal" paint supplier that it would have IRR built in?

 

I have been using a valved dust mask to FFP3 for the rubbing down, as the paint on the vehicle is indeed IRR. Very nasy stuff as you say.

 

So would any synthetic paint to 361 Light Stone be okay? I looked at a previous post where someone used

 

Protegalac Containergard HS

A high solids, single pack, modified alkyd one coat primer/finish. From Smith and Allan. Would this be acceptible in 361 Light Stone or would a single pack Coach Enamel be better? It would need to be brush/roller/spray type, that can be mixed with White Spirit.

 

 

Thanks

 

Andy

 

 

re IRR No not from normal suppliers try Frank Burbery last time I checked he was charging about £36 per 5 litres. The Smith & Allan seems OK but I have never been involved with a combined primer /finish.

I have also heard poor comments re Anchor.

TED

Edited May 7, 2010 by ted angus

[sirhc]

Nice one, thanks Chris.

 

I called Automotive Paint Supplies in Newbury. They can mix up Synthetic for me, but they want £78 for 5 litres!!!!!:shocked:

 

Andy

 

Andy,

 

I've played this game too. They always try and sell you the the most expensive stuff. Tell them what it's for, that it's not a classic car and that you want the cheapest they can offer. The cheapest is good enough for spraying an MV! 5 litres shouldn't cost more than about £40.

 

Chris

[Richard Farrant]

Nice one, thanks Chris.

 

I only need a gallon of 361 Light Stone, who would have thought it's so bloomin difficult.

 

I called Automotive Paint Supplies in Newbury. They can mix up Synthetic for me, but they want £78 for 5 litres!!!!!:shocked:

 

 

 

Andy,

 

Call Jeeparts UK, I have had Light Stone from them, it is a Semi-Matt, which has a slight sheen initially then tones down as it hardens. Does not absorb oil like matt does. They have two suppliers, Cromadex and Firwood. Cheaper to buy from them than to have one can mixed for you specially.

[LoggyDriver]

Andy,

 

Call Jeeparts UK, I have had Light Stone from them, it is a Semi-Matt, which has a slight sheen initially then tones down as it hardens. Does not absorb oil like matt does. They have two suppliers, Cromadex and Firwood. Cheaper to buy from them than to have one can mixed for you specially.

 

 

Thanks for that Richard,

 

I will give them a call on Monday. Is it the stuff that you can mix white spirit with? I'm after a Satin finish as I've been there and done that with the matt and like you say it's not too good.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks for that Richard,

 

I will give them a call on Monday. Is it the stuff that you can mix white spirit with? I'm after a Satin finish as I've been there and done that with the matt and like you say it's not too good.

 

 

 

 

Andy,

 

Forgot to say, it is a normal synthetic paint. you can use white spirit, but it is much better to use Standard Thinners ( you can get this easily from agricultural machinery dealers in 1 litre cans). Semi Matt is much like Satin, I normally use about 10% thinners to paint, it does not want to be too thin.

[ted angus]

Yes I'll second that I got a can of synthetic thinners and it was touch dry in 30 minutes or so which was just the ticket when I sprayed my Gipsy in the back yard with white spirit the drying was really drawn out.

my only regret was I only had a tiny compressor so it was a slow old job I have a much bigger one now and a new gun all we need is a summer !!

 

the paint is Alkyd based synthetic from frank Burbery exactly the same as the non IRR ised on MT and defence equipment.

 

TED

Edited May 7, 2010 by ted angus

[LoggyDriver]

Looks like a very nice paint job you have on your vehicle Ted.

 

I will order some synthetic thinners to compliment the paint. Frank Burbery paint seems to be of good quality.

 

I went round with some red primer yesterday to cover the exposed metal areas. I've spotted a bit of oxidization that I need to sort out above one of my side lockers.

 

The top photo shows the layers of paint that have been applied in the past and the Desert Sand that was on the vehicle when it was in the first Gulf War.

[LoggyDriver]

This is my compressor. It's OK, but if used for any length of time there is quite a bit of moisture that gets through despite having a collector fitted.

[rambo1969]

I use synthetic as well, buy mine from local paint supplier, I use a gloss roller!:-)

[ted angus]

This is my compressor. It's OK, but if used for any length of time there is quite a bit of moisture that gets through despite having a collector fitted.

 

 

That is vitually identical to my new one. Yes moisture is always a problem as is oil from the compressor crank. regular draining of the receiver drain tap its worth filling the receiver, allow to cool, drain a bit top up. after a few times you should have a tank of decent air that your outlet trap can deal with. The filters on the compressors and on the pipework and on each outlet in our paint facility on camp were awesome, but we still got the odd glitch.