question german flak gun sight id

[eddy8men]

hi fella's

just aquired this sight and i'm struggling to id it ,i've googled it and come up with panoramic mortar,88mm flak ,pak 40 and a stug so this is either the most flexible sight ever made or the above answers are mostly wrong.so any assistance you can offer would be much appreciated.

 

the sight markings are -

rblf.flak

djg

kf

nr.12775

M h/6400

 

thanks eddy

 

 

[steveo578]

Hi Eddy

 

The only StuG sights I know of are SfZf1/Rbif36, for Stug3 4, Pz 4/L70 V & A Hetzer, Ferdinand Sdkfz 234/3 a/c this and variants Zf3x8/Rbif36 for 8.8cm Pak 43 in Hornisse. all have a armoured prism which sticks out through a hole in the roof which your sight apparently does not have.

 

It possibly could be the simplified lineviser sight off several 2cm 3.7cm flak guns.

 

Photo SfZf1a in a Stug 3 F/8

 

Steve

[eddy8men]

hi steve

thanks for the info, i was thinking along the same lines as you with regard to it being from a small flak gun the magnification looks to be about x4 where as most of the larger allied gun aa sights seem to be about x8, so that might suggest a small calibre but this is just guess work. somebody out there will have the answer !

 

cheers eddy

[steveo578]

Hi Eddy

 

the only further infomation I have found is ZF20/Rblf32 is the designation for a flak 18-36 A/A gun -can't find a photo of one though.

 

Other than that if your sight wasn't maked "FlaK" and had a fully marked reticule it would be the same as the auxillary sight used on virtually all small and medium calibre field weapons, especially those that were leftovers from WW1 such as 10cm K17, but even 15cm sIG33 mounted it as did extemporised types such as 7M85 which was a slash up using a Pak 40 barrel and 105mm carriage.

 

Steve

[eddy8men]

thanks steve

once again thanks for the info, i've pm'd a guy on the forum called mlespaul who specialises in german optics only trouble is he hasn't used the forum for a while so it's a long shot but i'll keep plugging away til something comes up.

 

cheers eddy

[MichelK]

Hi folks

 

I good not find all the markings, however this is what I could find

 

rblf.flak = Rundblickfernrohr Flak

So this is an AA gun sight, not from an vehicle

 

djg = manufacturer code, djg means: Navagation, Berlin-Tempelhof

 

the remaining codes are not clear

However the 12775 is most likely an serial number, I found an picture of the same item with number 12980

The M h/6400 is probably the model /make

 

From what I could find it should be an gun sight that was mounted on top of the 88mm

It was used to meassure the distances between battery guns (most of the time 4) an the central control device

It was also used on the control device to measure in the oposite direction to the guns

 

So official it was not used during combat situations, before firing this gun sight was removed

However, according to some information, it was used in emergency situations for aiming the gun

 

Thanks to the German site: http://www.militaria-fundforum.com/archive/index.php/t-24189.html

 

Picture of the same item, with different number

http://www.picturerack.com/ims/reichpapers/17813.jpg

http://www.picturerack.com/ims/reichpapers/17814.jpg

 

MichelK

[eddy8men]

thank you michel

i appreciate you taking the time to write a very comprehensive reply and i'm pleased to discover it was used on the 88mm, shame it was used to only set up the gun and not aim it but beggars can't be choosers, quite how it's used to measure distances and angles is still a mystery to me so i think i'll do a little more digging as i've seen on another forum that these sights were used to aim ww1 artillery although not this model number they are nearly identical externally.so maybe i was right on my first post when i said this was the most flexible sight ever made although i said it in jest

if i get anymore info i'll let you all know.

 

thanks again

 

eddy

[tim gray]

Hi eddy8men,

 

Re the measuring of angles, it would have been used to sight onto a reference stake or onto an aiming mark on the master gun on the battery if visible. From that you can work out the offsets between the weapons and calculate the aim off so all roundS land on the given target. If you look at the graticules on the lower ring below the sight it has a red 64 showing in the picture. This was for 6400 mils, artillery almost invariably use mils and not degrees as the measurement is much more accurate.

 

As similar device was available to set up section fire with the MG 34 mounted on tripods, to get accurate distances you need two reference angles and work it out with trigonemetry. Artillery men often require large brains to work it all out. Nowadays done at the push of a button and GPS. :cool2: ten seconds later fire for effect!

 

Regards

Tim

[MichelK]

Eddy, you're welcome

 

most likely I could find more at various German site's how this gun sight should work

 

The only problem is that I have to translate it from German to Dutch, to figure out what is being told and to understand it myself

After that I have to translate it from Dutch to English to put an post here, in a way that an English speaking guy also understands it

 

And I'm not an gunner, so most likely I will understand only half of the original explanation

 

However I did find something about the working of the type of sight at the Lonesentry page

 

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/rundblickfernrohr-16.html

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/rundblickfernrohr-32-rbl-f-32-panoramic-telescope-32.html

 

MichelK

[eddy8men]

thank you guys

michel once again i owe you a thank you for your time, i know what you mean when you say it's hard to translate other languages i use google translate to view polish sites and the results are pretty random but it's better than nothing so your patience is doubley appreciated, thank you.i've also saved the lonesentry to my favourites as it looks like a good reference site.

 

tim thanks for your input my tiny reme mind is still struggling to comprehend the theory so i'll take your word for it. you sound like you used to be a long range sniper, i served with a couple of arty regt's and i've gotta say none of them looked like brain surgeons, neanderthal's more like. good lads though and good times.

 

thanks again

 

eddy

[steveo578]

eddy8men

..............my tiny reme mind is still struggling to comprehend the theory .......

 

 

 

Don't under estimate yourself, its trig- not string theory, I know a couple of D.Pils that can't change their headlamp bulbs, as far as I'm concerned without REME the army is back in the 19th C.

 

eddy8men

i'm pleased to discover it was used on the 88mm, shame it was used to only set up the gun and not aim it but beggars can't be choosers,

 

 

Its still an important item in setting up a gun site- a rather more specialist piece of kit than a theodolite which would be the alternative, but I can see why it might have been used to set up mortars. When set up as a FlaK gun FlaK 18-36 and larger weapons would not mount sights they would be controlled from a central predictor and later radar aimed- and in some cases auto-setting of the fuses, the gun crews following transmited instructions, it would be impractical for a gun as large as a FlaK 18 to go into local control against aircraft, however against an indirect ground target a mechanism like Rblf32 could be used to aim the gun, assuming a bright officer:D , I don't think this was the sight that was used as a direct sight in the ground role with great effect against tanks.

 

Steve

[MichelK]

I don't think this was the sight that was used as a direct sight in the ground role with great effect against tanks.

 

Steve

 

Correct, it was only used in this role in case of an emergency when the "real" optics got damaged or lost :captain:

 

I think the emergency situation only existed in the instruction manual

 

Most of the time soldiers are very protective when it concerns optics, so loosing one is hard to believe

 

In the case of the real optics getting damaged, usually this would also mean the gun it self got damaged along the way

 

And even if there was an emergency ever, not an living person with some common sense would climb on top of an 88 to take an look through the optics :nut:

 

Because it would mean you would have to stand on top (+/- 2.5m / 8ft), with no cover on something that makes some nasty moves when fired :eek: :sweat:

 

MichelK

[eddy8men]

hi fella's

 

you know it's funny but i've never seen a flak 18 in my life, then within the space of 2 weeks i met a fella with one sitting in his field and several more bogies and bits nearby,i bought a complete shell from poland and i end up with the sight off one from ebay, must be fate.

now if i can just get the rest of it and maybe an 8 ton half track to pull it i'll be quids in.

 

cheers eddy

[MichelK]

hi fella's

 

you know it's funny but i've never seen a flak 18 in my life, then within the space of 2 weeks i met a fella with one sitting in his field and several more bogies and bits nearby,i bought a complete shell from poland and i end up with the sight off one from ebay, must be fate.

now if i can just get the rest of it and maybe an 8 ton half track to pull it i'll be quids in.

 

cheers eddy

 

You could start with the model kits of the Tamiya 8ton half track and an FlaK 18 from Dragon :cool2:

 

I have been digging in my photo archive for 88mm overhere in the Netherlands, we have at least 3 that are easy to acces

And found the gun sight mounted on one, an surviving 88mm FlaK 37 at the Overloon museum

 

MichelK

[steveo578]

MichelK

I think the emergency situation only existed in the instruction manual

 

Most of the time soldiers are very protective when it concerns optics, so loosing one is hard to believe

 

In the case of the real optics getting damaged, usually this would also mean the gun it self got damaged along the way

 

And even if there was an emergency ever, not an living person with some common sense would climb on top of an 88 to take an look through the optics :nut:

 

Because it would mean you would have to stand on top (+/- 2.5m / 8ft), with no cover on something that makes some nasty moves when fired :eek: :sweat:

 

 

I would think as an emergency sight it would fitted in place of the RBlF32 on the direct sighting bar shown in the pic of an 8.8cm FlaK 18 shown,

 

 

the survey position is only good if the weapon is at zero elevation as it is on the axis of the traverse of the mount and is positioned on the top of weapon to give a clear view of the datum point. when the datum was set then the survey instrument would be removed (if the gun is fired with the sight still on its bracket the sight would probably be broken) and placed in its transport box or returned to the Messtrup officer (panoramic sights were in short supply throughout WW2 and were often issued to battery or even company level, even SPG vehicles only received them on one for two basis.) There is no way anyone could aim a weapon from that position unless they had been let loose with the schnapps.

 

As to use in emergency, it is perfectly feasable that the direct sight could be damaged by a bullet or fragment piecing or passing through the sighting aperture, probably didn't happen often, but viewing the Wakenshaw gun would prove my point. There are other senarios such as the loss of the prime mover and even accidental damage (the most unlikely) causing the loss of the sights. The most likely cause would be the guns were slated for A/A use and appropriate ground sights were not available.

 

There are numerous instances of 88s and other guns firing battle ranging burst fire against tanks - which is indicative of guns using sights without appropriate reticules which a survey sight is an example.

 

Steve

Edited April 8, 2010 by steveo578

[eddy8men]

thanks again for your efforts, it's what i believe this forum is all about.

 

i owe you both a pint

 

cheers eddy

[tim gray]

thank you guys

michel once again i owe you a thank you for your time, i know what you mean when you say it's hard to translate other languages i use google translate to view polish sites and the results are pretty random but it's better than nothing so your patience is doubley appreciated, thank you.i've also saved the lonesentry to my favourites as it looks like a good reference site.

 

tim thanks for your input my tiny reme mind is still struggling to comprehend the theory so i'll take your word for it. you sound like you used to be a long range sniper, i served with a couple of arty regt's and i've gotta say none of them looked like brain surgeons, neanderthal's more like. good lads though and good times.

 

thanks again

 

eddy

 

Hi eddy

Dont sell yourself short.......REME are no dumb teddies.......bailed me out on a couple of occasions

However...........:cry: my poor RE heart is broken........feeling guilty yet :cool2:

88 mil.....way cool subject but the garden is not big enough!!!

 

Regards

Tim