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Saracen Build-up


montie

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Hi all,

 

As a follow-up on this post, the following pics. Not historic as in your sense but being systematically eroded and deleted by the present powers-that-be.

 

I though I should post a couple of pictures of models I built when I was still an apprentice living in a hostel with lots of time on my hands after my Army service. The hobby actually started when I was in the army and on Border service. Me and a friend started off measuring up a "Buffel" and building one to scale from using thin planks from the Mess which was the packaging material for tomatoes and begging for some glue from the radio operators.

 

Unimogs were used as bases and heavily modified by the Army workshops as mine protected vehicles and which were the standard troop carriers in the north of South West Africa as most roads were mined daily, even after sweeping for mines. These vehicles were highly respected by all troops(everybody!) as it could go anywhere and we had very little loss of life with single landmines, serious damage to the vehicles and eardrums though! Double or stacked mines caused serious problems! Just search for "Bush war" for more info.

 

Back to the models. Eventually we build these models for pocket money (beer! troops were not allowed to be sold hard tack). Back in the "States"(South Africa and before departing for the "Border" again) we built models of 81mm mortars, Vickers Machine guns and 106 Jeeps(Fitted with 106 Recoilless guns as anti-tank measures (We actually made it into the Army monthly (Paratus) with these models at the time, I might still have the article, will do some digging).

 

I never saw any of these 106 Jeeps on the border though, the Army relied much more on the Eland 60's and 90's (modified Panhards) and the Ratel. The Ratel was based on the Saracen but with modern technology were much more effective than the Saracen. Reputedly the Cubans and insurgents were more afraid of these vehicles than tanks because of their manueverability. There I go again!

 

These are not my pics but scrounged from the net.

 

 

 

"Buffels" Mine protected troop carriers(based on Unimog chassis) in action.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Son of Saracen", The Ratel that leaned on the Saracen design as a base.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Eland" , based on Panhards.

 

The mobile "G6 "

 

Cheers.

 

Monty.

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Hi All,

I've only just caught up with reading this thread (fascinating though). Apart from a mention by Oily back in post No7 there has been no mention so far of this being a Saracen 88, reputedly VERY rare. I have in front of me a 4 page article from Military Machines International Magazine July 2002 covering the Saracen 88.....& the vehicle is identical to Monties (apart from the colour). Although I think Montie said his was a standard Mk3.....it's not is it ?

 

There are 14 very good pictures in the feature showing the 23 improvements carried out on Mk2 Saracens by a British company called GKL Equipment Pte Ltd. The extended nose, hinged front grill, different "German style" headlights & smoke dischargers, front tow hook, stowage bins, air outlet louvres, & all new electrics to name a few. The extended nose "allowed GKL to offer a diesel engine version". The vehicle was apparently showcased in 1988 (hence the name) & I think I noticed the build plate inside Monties motor is dated 1988

 

According to the article, the one featured was "the sole surviving example" & was "shortly to be exported to the US".

 

Does anyone else have that MMI issue ?, if so have a shuftie & see if you agree. Montie could be sitting on (in) something very rare if the feature is accurate.

 

Howard.

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Hi All,

Me again. Just been excitedly re-reading that MMI feature, seems GKL also fitted the air/hydraulic braking system that Monty thought was a South African mod.

 

Studying the pics on here & comparing to the feature I've spotted a good 5 other small mods that are identical & match the featured 88 perfectly, chequer plate on the front wings, & knee height access steps to the engine compartment for example.

 

There is a small picture of the original sales brochure too showing it was modified to mount a 50cal on the AA Bren ring.

 

If the 88 is really rare as it says & Monty has one, that would be something would`nt it ?

The feature states "it was a one off prototype & never went into production". Spooky.

 

Howard.

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Hi Richard,

Well the Saracen in your link certainly has the same 3 colour paint job as the one in MMI, & it must be the same company...GKL.

 

Now, who's correct ?...did they only build one prototype as the feature says (& Monty has by a quirk of fate aquired it) or did they build a bunch for SA? (hush hush)....or was it farmed out to a subsidiary company for production (who, where, how many)?.....the plot thickens.

 

Hope Monty can eventually shed some light on it. Come on Monty do some digging mate.

 

Howard.

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Hi Howard,

 

You may be onto something, I have that Saracen 88 article as well but haven't really studied it before now.

 

As far as I can say, these vehicles are identical. The rumour about it being the sole example in the article is just that, a rumour (see post #47). If that is the case, South Africa has 280 prototypes! Well, could be because they were aquired before the apartheid / Isolation years. The identification plates states Saracen Mark 3 SA (post #21) and the Hull number 96BA67.

 

 

There are no welding marks on the nose showing that the nose was extended, outside or inside. Also, as far as I have it, the vehicles never left the country for mods, it was done in Uitenhage in the Cape.

 

Here are the zoomed pics from the Saracen 88 link and an inside photo. The seating arrangements, ducting, interior lights, instrument lay-outs are identical. Even the driver seat is that of a mark 3 Saracen. This quote comes from from post 21.

This photo shows the specs of this Saracen. It was English built (280 of them!) and exported to South Africa. I am sure that there should be similar models around Europe, it can't only be South Africa that has these.

 

 

 

 

Photos removed copyright GKL Group

 

Somebody should be in the know!

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

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Edited by Marmite!!
Photos removed copyright GKL Group
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Monty,

 

96BA67 is the UK MoD registration number. I suggest you get in touch with the Tank Museum Library (http://www.tankmuseum.org/) and get hold of the history card. This will show when it was sold off, and who to. I would guess it would have been sold to the conversion company, so should tie up some loose ends!

 

Chris

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Hi all,

 

I am sorry to have offended anybody, only one of the pics came from the GKL group and is availble to browse on their website as per the link given above. The other photo that was removed is my own taken from my vehicle. If I have broken any rules, I am so sorry but, my-my, somebody is mighty sensitive out there. I was wondering whether old South African Saracens aren't maybe imported and sold off? Noo, noo, naughty thoughts!

 

This is a photo from my Saracen and the floor plate that was cut to gain access to the centre bevel box oil seal, can be clearly seen.

 

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

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We have to be careful & protect HMVF re copyright issues, the forum rules are quite clear on that point, we we had a problem quite recently when photos were taken off another site & the site owner contacted us re legal issues when he found out, in the end he kindly gave us permission after lengthy discussions with him.

 

If you wish to post material off another site then contact the webmaster first & get permission in writing.. the owner of HMVF has already lost one business over an issue with copyright & doesn't want to go down that road again.

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Hi Monty,

Well, I hope you get fully to the bottom of the saga, your Saracen has obviously had a very interesting life so far & it would be great to find out for sure when it was exported, & who actually did all the mods & where they were done (by GKL here or under license over there) Not to mention where, if, when it saw any action. Are the South African army (or your MOD) forthcoming with service history perhaps ?? Maybe even GKL themselves would give you some background, there are contact e mail addresses on their website.

 

Having done a pile of research for our 1/24th scale Saracen kit already, (see here http://www.kitformservices.com/tq.html) I find this subject just fascinating. If our kit was`nt an uparmoured version I'd be considering doing a mod pack for the kit to do an 88.

 

Hope you crack all the mechanical problems too. We can smell the hypoid oil from here mate. Keep us all up to speed with any history you get on her.

 

Best Regs.....Howard.

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Hi guys,

 

I am in an extremely good mood tonight on account of today's work on that troublesome R/H front wheel. I refer you to post #48

I totally agree on the silicon issue. I even found it was used as a sealing compound on the fuel tank panels with evidence of slicon in the fuelpumps that failed and had to be replaced. These vehicles were reconditioned in 1987 and sold off shortly after that. Could be that some unskilled/ semi skilled labour was utilised for the revamping.

 

I think I will stand by this as you will later see.

 

 

This is what I found before serious disassembly. Accident waiting to happen!!

 

 

"Tools in action", an old engine stand "Called up for Duty" together with the newly made tools. Boy, that wheel assy is heavy!

 

 

 

Don't those wedges just work swell?!! Men were using their brains then and not computors. My hat off to those men!!

 

 

 

This is how I found the inner tracta on disassembly, filthy but otherwise appearing OK. (Apparently OK started off as an abbreviation for "0 Killed") I never knew that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM!! This is how the inner Tracta assembly on the driveshaft side towards the reduction hub looked upon removal. Incorrectly assembled but fortunately with minimum damage caused! Turning that tracta shaft causes the wheel assy to turn----NO broken shafts, forks or anything else!! Hoorray!!!

 

 

This is how it should look! This is after some minor initial cleaning, armed with a grinder and a fine grit flapper disc. Curiosity satified, mind at ease, now for the big cleaning effort, new seals and parts and reassembly. But this on another day, another appointment tomorrow.

 

Cheers.

 

Monty.

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Hi Monty,

 

Well there could have been two mistakes you have found on your Saracen so far, first one, tracta joint misaligned on assembly, and possibly mis-timed hub reduction..........and was that pin not located correctly either?

 

The inner tracta appears to have grease in it, I wonder if this is a reason for the bevel box to fail, insufficient lubrication, as they both use the same source of oil.

Edited by Richard Farrant
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Hi Richard,

 

You have got a keen eye!

 

The pins (upper and lower suspension pins as well as the shock absorber pins) were on their way out, the lower pin had the end ground into a taper to try and get it to fit as can be seen by the peening on the other end. I was also not able to "collect o-rings and distance piece". Evaporated? Don't think so.

 

As to the grease, it is more of a watery, oily, greasy mess than anything else. This particular bevel box did not have a drain plug fitted either during the draining episode, only the 3/4 inch square drive plug underneath was fitted.

 

Monty.

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Hi Chris,

 

96BA67 is the UK MoD registration number. I suggest you get in touch with the Tank Museum Library (http://www.tankmuseum.org/) and get hold of the history card. This will show when it was sold off, and who to. I would guess it would have been sold to the conversion company, so should tie up some loose ends!

 

 

 

Thank you for the tip! I have written them last night and is waiting for their reply "on the way foreward".

 

I am also waiting for a response from Graham.

 

I also wrote to a library in the Netherlands about manuals they have on the Saracen but also had no response to date. Maybe they are batteling with my Afrikaans version of Dutch!

I will try to add a link. They have a lot on info on a wide variety of vehicles. Pity it is so far, could really be worth a visit.

G4-051PantserwagensSaladin, Saracen, Stalwert, SalamanderMilitary vehicles Alvis01G4-052PantserwagensSaracen, AFV 603, Armored Personnel CarrierArmoured personnel carrier00G4-048PantserwagensSaracen, AFV 603, Armored Personnel CarrierArmoured personnel carrier Alvis0

 

http://www.technische-troepen.nl/biblio/bibliotheek.php?case=catwielvtgn

 

Monty.

 

 

G4-051PantserwagensSaladin, Saracen, Stalwert, SalamanderMilitary vehicles Alvis01G4-052PantserwagensSaracen, AFV 603, Armored Personnel CarrierArmoured personnel carrier00G4-048PantserwagensSaracen, AFV 603, Armored Personnel CarrierArmoured personnel carrier Alvis01

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They can be bought any time from Mark at Vintage manuals http://www.mark.clubaustin.co.uk/

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Hi guys,

 

I have this particular manual and put it to good use during the removal last night. Could use more detailed repair info, though.

 

I pulled on the tracta fork in the bevel box and it came out. I will assemble the whole lot as a unit and then guide the splined stub back into the bevel box to ensure correct assembly this time.

 

Monty.

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Hi all,

 

Andy.........Ouch!! Did that happen while you were driving? Did the fork in the bevel box also have damage, so it would have meant a lot of work? Was it the L/H frontwheel by any chance, if I remember the leak?

 

Yesterday when I battled to remove the wheel assy from the bevel box, I thought that I should maybe also loosen the nuts of the flange bolted to the body (It wasn't mentioned in the removal procedure though) The sleeve came out after a while with some generous lubrication to the sleeve and a lot of uncomfortable tugging.

 

Today while cleaning in the area, I noticed that the loosened flange was also on its way out. This flange carries the crown wheel and would normally not budge as the pinion will prevent it. The pinion in this bevel box has been removed however. I thought it would be easy to give the lot a proper cleaning and inspection before taking the bevel box out as instructed by Richard. No way, no matter how I pulled and manipulated, it moved about an inch and a half but that is it. Any ideas?

 

Howard, as to the issue about the Saracen 88, I do not have the article you referred to in the "Military Machines International Magazine July 2002" as I thought. Is there any way I could get hold of it or a copy of the magazine, I would really appreciate that. I also thought that with all the coincidences, I might as well paint it like the Saracen 88.

 

Cheers.

 

Monty.

 

Hi montie,

 

At least your tracta joint dosen't look like mine did on the Saladin.

Photo not very good, but it gives you an idea of the damage.

The BANG judder judder grrrrrr was quite scary....

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Hi Monty,

Well, I hope you get fully to the bottom of the saga, your Saracen has obviously had a very interesting life so far & it would be great to find out for sure when it was exported, & who actually did all the mods & where they were done (by GKL here or under license over there) Not to mention where, if, when it saw any action. Are the South African army (or your MOD) forthcoming with service history perhaps ?? Maybe even GKL themselves would give you some background, there are contact e mail addresses on their website.

 

Having done a pile of research for our 1/24th scale Saracen kit already, (see here http://www.kitformservices.com/tq.html) I find this subject just fascinating. If our kit was`nt an uparmoured version I'd be considering doing a mod pack for the kit to do an 88.

 

Hope you crack all the mechanical problems too. We can smell the hypoid oil from here mate. Keep us all up to speed with any history you get on her.

 

Best Regs.....Howard.

 

Howard,

 

How far have you progessed with production of your Saracen model or are you still researching? I have access to some drawings if you needed it.

 

Monty.

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Monty,

MASSIVE e mail on its way back to you, let me know if you get any problems with downloading.

Think you'll find it interesting. Enjoy.

 

Re the Saracen model, it is 1/24th scale, was released in February this year as the MK5/6 version. About 8" long. Full interior detail, Rolls B80, working doors & hatches. Or as we say in the UK "The Full Monty". (sorry chaps, had to use that line)

 

Click here http://www.kitformservices.com/tq.html & then scroll down just past the Stalwart which is right at the top of the page. Click the little camera Icons for pictures.

 

Sadly the MK5/6 is the uparmoured version so I can't reverse engineer it to do an 88 conversion package.

 

Keep us up to speed on what you discover.

 

Howard.

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