Saracen Build-up

[oily]

Hi Monty,

Those sun/planet gear photos made me wince! ouch!, I don'i envy you sorting that little lot out!

sorry I've not emailed any more pics yet, -computer was down... sadly also my saracen is mis-behaving too. I went to check on it, to ready it for some forthcoming prom-night jobs, it started fine with a jump-start, and settled down to a lovely smooth idle, I engaged reverse 1st, to manouver it around the yard, and my hydraulic warning light came on, signalling no hydraulic pressure (-no power assistance for steering or footbrake!).... not good! so I was wondering if amongst your manuals/field repair information, -do you have any info on testing/changing the hydraulic pump, and the correct procedure for bleeding the system....initially when I got mine 'on the road' all was fine after just recharging the accumulators, and topping up the hydraulic oil. When my engine is running, I can see the drive pulley for the pump spinning, but on looking into the filler neck of the hydraulic tank there is no sign of any fluid movement, when usually there would be. I'm not aware of any inherrant problems with these types of pump, initially, before I was the owner, it had sat immobile for approx 15yrs!, and was fine when I put i into storage, last September..... so I'm more than a little puzzled..... Check your email inbox, this afternoon/evening, as I'm sending Tracta-joint diagrams etc....

 

If there are any other forum members 'in the picture' about saracen faults, I'd welcome any other input/comments (-preferably serious ones!:-))

 

Regards

 

Oily

[montie]

Hi all,

 

Not much happened last night, I started jacking the vehicle and installed supports onthe R/H middle and front wheel and that is how far I got. I got visitors and then spent the balance of the evening indoors.

 

I though I should post a couple of pictures of models I built when I was still an apprentice living in a hostel with lots of time on my hands after my Army service. The hobby actually started when I was in the army and on Border service. Me and a friend started off measuring up a "Buffel" and building one to scale from using thin planks from the Mess which was the packaging material for tomatoes and begging for some glue from the radio operators.

 

Unimogs were used as bases and heavily modified by the Army workshops as mine protected vehicles and which were the standard troop carriers in the north of South West Africa as most roads were mined daily, even after sweeping for mines. These vehicles were highly respected by all troops(everybody!) as it could go anywhere and we had very little loss of life with single landmines, serious damage to the vehicles and eardrums though! Double or stacked mines caused serious problems! Just search for "Bush war" for more info.

 

Back to the models. Eventually we build these models for pocket money (beer! troops were not allowed to be sold hard tack). Back in the "States"(South Africa and before departing for the "Border" again) we built models of 81mm mortars, Vickers Machine guns and 106 Jeeps(Fitted with 106 Recoilless guns as anti-tank measures (We actually made it into the Army monthly (Paratus) with these models at the time, I might still have the article, will do some digging).

 

I never saw any of these 106 Jeeps on the border though, the Army relied much more on the Eland 60's and 90's (modified Panhards) and the Ratel. The Ratel was based on the Saracen but with modern technology were much more effective than the Saracen. Reputedly the Cubans and insurgents were more afraid of these vehicles than tanks because of their manueverability. There I go again!

 

Here are a 106 Jeep from that era and a Saracen from my apprentice days that I gave to my uncle. He loaned them to me for these pics. Dankie, Baas Ben!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[montie]

Hi Oily,

 

Sorry to hear about your problem! Very inconvenient at this time for you, I pressume!

 

I was wondering if amongst your manuals/field repair information, -do you have any info on testing/changing the hydraulic pump, and the correct procedure for bleeding the system

 

 

I will search through the little bit that I have and forward it to you ASAP! I really hope I can be of assistance.

 

Regards.

 

Monty

[oily]

Loving those models, Monty!..... I 'made' a Saracen in 'Pottery!' class of all things, at school, when I was about 14 or 15, I still have it somewhere.... probably in the depths of my 20ft container somewhere. I'd really appreciate the help, if you have the relevant info.

On the subject of 'driving', I'll see what I can do for you....:cool2:

[montie]

Hi all,

 

I received exellent news this afternoon when getting back from work. My prayers and e-mail were answered as Chris's contact responded!!.:D

Perhaps if you could send any pics or part numbers I may be able to assist you

I am served in the REME many years ago and bought the entire spares stock from alvis in 2002 so I have many parts that may be able to assist you if you can identify what you need

 

 

I do not know whether he is a forum member but gave him the details. I really hope he joins, a lot of people could benefit from the spares! PM me if anybody needs the contact details for the meantime.

 

My mail to him mail was sent off and now anxiously awaiting a reply!

 

I seem to have picked up the flu from somebody at work though and am not feeling so bright. Will have to take it slow while dosing myself with pills and such.

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

[montie]

Hi guys,

 

Some feedback on the spares. I got pictures of the wheel reduction units. Don't they look just fine?! We just need to clarify whether all wheel units were off the same reduction for the different marks.

 

I will have to strip the reduction box off and count the teeth of the sun, planet and annullus gears. I have the formula somewhere of calculating the reduction of the unit if I have the gear teeth numbers.

If somebody has the answer without me having to go through this riddle, please help.

 

Pic of complete assy in the box, all positions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

[AndyFowler]

Hmmmmm ! lovely !

[montie]

Hi Andy,

 

I have just been reading through your Daisy project post. Truly inspirational! When do we get more pics of your progress?

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

[montie]

Hi Oily,

 

I have just been wondering whether you are making headway with your problem?

 

Monty

[montie]

Hi all,

 

We had such a beautiful day today, not a cloud or any wind.I could not let the opportunity slide and decided to finally change Sarie's colour. I already bought the paint a while ago and never had the opportunity. So, today was the day!

 

The transition from Fugly to Sarie!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyFowler]

Lovely job Montie ! What a difference a day makes !

[andyroo]

Hi guys,

 

Some feedback on the spares. I got pictures of the wheel reduction units. Don't they look just fine?! We just need to clarify whether all wheel units were off the same reduction for the different marks.

 

I will have to strip the reduction box off and count the teeth of the sun, planet and annullus gears. I have the formula somewhere of calculating the reduction of the unit if I have the gear teeth numbers.

If somebody has the answer without me having to go through this riddle, please help.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27399[/ATTACH]

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

 

Very nice but that wheel station is for a Saladin. Note the two hydrolic cylinders. These work a disc brake, Saracen had drums.

You realy dont want a Saladin disc brake on anything, including Saladin!!!

[montie]

Hi Andyroo,

 

Excellent observation on your side! I did go back to the e-mail, in my happy state I missed the heading which stated clearly and in bold "SALADIN AND SARACEN WHEEL STATIONS"

 

If they are identical in other respects save for the brakes, I could still use it as the South Africans installed air over hydraulic brakes in any case. Being an owner of both these vehicles, you would probably know whether it could be used in a transplant if a Saracen wheel unit is not available.

 

Keeping my hopes up!

 

Regards.

 

Monty

[andyroo]

Monty,

 

All the important working parts are the same. I advice stripping down anyway and replacing all seals with new. Reason being I have replaced several Ferret wheel stations and 1 Saladin wheel station with NOS only to have to strip them down a few months later and replace the seals anyway.

Mildly embarrassing discovering a large pool of oil around the front wheel of the Saladin on the parade gound....

[sirhc]

Mildly embarrassing discovering a large pool of oil around the front wheel of the Saladin on the parade gound....

 

:cool2:

[oily]

Hi Oily,

 

I have just been wondering whether you are making headway with your problem?

 

Monty

 

 

Thanks, Montie, for your concern..... no further as yet as my girlfriend (and fellow military vehicle enthusiast!) was rushed into hospital with a nasty chest infection:embarrassed:, and subsequent pulmonary embolism:cry:,.... all very frightening:shocked:, so saracen problem has taken a back seat, til she's better....:-(

[montie]

Hi Andyroo,

 

It is indeed excellent news, replacing the seals should not be a problem, I will contact Bannisters for that. The importance are the working parts. I haven't heard from my spares contact yet and will follow up with a mail. I'm like a kid that can't wait for Christmas.

 

Cheers.

 

Monty.

[montie]

Thanks, Montie, for your concern..... no further as yet as my girlfriend (and fellow military vehicle enthusiast!) was rushed into hospital with a nasty chest infection:embarrassed:, and subsequent pulmonary embolism:cry:,.... all very frightening:shocked:, so saracen problem has taken a back seat, til she's better....:-(

 

Hi Matt,

 

Not good news but hope things are looking up for the both of you. I am jealous of the "fellow military vehicle enthusiast" part, my other half just grins(moans?) and bear it!

 

Best wishes and may your crew member get better very soon!

 

Monty

[montie]

Hi Chris,

 

My other vehicles are of the Ford brand and to this day I believe that oil leaks on those are factory standard and intended as "corrosion control". One very nice example of a Saladin (yours?), just frustrating to think about all the work required to make that leak go away! Pity it wasn't just a large dog.

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

[sirhc]

Hi Monty,

 

That's Andy's Saladin, and Andy's leak! We were down in London doing the Household Cavalry Pagent at the time.

 

Chris

[montie]

Hi Monty,

 

That's Andy's Saladin, and Andy's leak! We were down in London doing the Household Cavalry Pagent at the time.

 

Chris

Hi,

 

Dang, having such a friend spilling the beans! Andy, I would still be extremely proud if she was mine.

 

monty

[montie]

Hi all,

 

A bit more progress this afternoon, got home a little earlier than usual, strike at work and us contractors got ordered off site. I don't complain, got some work done.

 

Something bad must have happened inside this reduction box, I initially thought that only some of the front planetary and sun gear teeth were broken but have a look for yourselves. I imagine it was the "timing" but for now I still can't figure this "Gear timing" thing out. I mean, it is the annulus, then the planet gears which can only mesh to the annulus on the one side and to the sun gear on the other side. The planet gears can't be swopped around as they would not mesh. However, one of my friends pointed out that since the fourth and fifth tooth on the planet gear is in line, maybe undue stress would be caused if the lined teeth are not in similar relative positions on the annulus and sungear. Maybe Richard can expand a bit on this lot.

Hub starting to pull apart with homemade sliding hammer attached to the hub. This after all attemps at removing the slotted plugs failed with two U/S impact wrenches to show for it.

 

 

The damage to the inner sections of the planet gears revealed.

 

Damage to the sun gear shown. Annulus seems fine but it makes no difference. All will be replaced.

Enough silicon was used to make a couple of woman happy! The hub must have been opened and incorrectly assembled at some point in the past. Is no gasket used at this joint?

Regards.

 

Monty.

[Richard Farrant]

Hi all,

 

A bit more progress this afternoon, got home a little earlier than usual, strike at work and us contractors got ordered off site. I don't complain, got some work done.

 

Something bad must have happened inside this reduction box, I initially thought that only some of the front planetary and sun gear teeth were broken but have a look for yourselves. I imagine it was the "timing" but for now I still can't figure this "Gear timing" thing out. I mean, it is the annulus, then the planet gears which can only mesh to the annulus on the one side and to the sun gear on the other side. The planet gears can't be swopped around as they would not mesh. However, one of my friends pointed out that since the fourth and fifth tooth on the planet gear is in line, maybe undue stress would be caused if the lined teeth are not in similar relative positions on the annulus and sungear. Maybe Richard can expand a bit on this lot.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27742[/ATTACH]

Hub starting to pull apart with homemade sliding hammer attached to the hub. This after all attemps at removing the slotted plugs failed with two U/S impact wrenches to show for it.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27743[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27741[/ATTACH]

The damage to the inner sections of the planet gears revealed.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27740[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27739[/ATTACH]

Damage to the sun gear shown. Annulus seems fine but it makes no difference. All will be replaced.

Enough silicon was used to make a couple of woman happy! The hub must have been opened and incorrectly assembled at some point in the past. Is no gasket used at this joint?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27738[/ATTACH]

Regards.

 

Monty.

 

Hi Montie,

 

I think you can discount an assembly error, ie not timing the gears, when you also have the bevel box damage. My feeling is this, either a tracta joint has failed big time, whilst driving the strain has been put through the bevel box, hence a lost tooth, also the planet gearing has been damaged by a locked wheel station being dragged along by the other wheels, stripping the teeth. The look of your bevel box, gives me thoughts that it might have failed through lack of oil, as that oil level also feeds the inner tracta, then it will be interesting to see what that looks like.

 

There are no gaskets on those hubs, in service, we used Hylomar or similar. I am not in favour of silicone sealants as it tends to set off before you are ready and can cause a sandwich, not allowing the two parts to tighten up properly. This then allows fretting and more problems.

 

I am looking forward to the next installment.....Tracta joints :-D

[montie]

Hi Richard,

 

Your comment shows off your experience with these vehicles. The bevel box and tracta that failed is on the R/H front wheel and the reduction hub is on the R/H centre wheel though. Could it have been caused by axle wind-up? I am now also worried about the other wheel stations eventhough none of them had any metallic particles in the oil.

 

I totally agree on the silicon issue. I even found it was used as a sealing compound on the fuel tank panels with evidence of slicon in the fuelpumps that failed and had to be replaced. These vehicles were reconditioned in 1987 and sold off shortly after that. Could be that some unskilled/ semi skilled labour was utilised for the revamping.

 

Regards.

 

Monty.

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Richard,

 

Your comment shows off your experience with these vehicles. The bevel box and tracta that failed is on the R/H front wheel and the reduction hub is on the R/H centre wheel though. Could it have been caused by axle wind-up? I am now also worried about the other wheel stations eventhough none of them had any metallic particles in the oil.

 

I totally agree on the silicon issue. I even found it was used as a sealing compound on the fuel tank panels with evidence of slicon in the fuelpumps that failed and had to be replaced. These vehicles were reconditioned in 1987 and sold off shortly after that. Could be that some unskilled/ semi skilled labour was utilised for the revamping.

 

 

 

Hi Monty,

 

I did not realise the reduction damage was another wheel station........well, with that in mind, then it could be that the gears were not timed correctly. Was there oil in there?

 

Your mentioning silicon in the fuel system reminds me of the first CVR(T) vehicles that came into our Workshops many years ago, some were suffering recuring fuel problems. I noticed that inspection covers on the petrol tanks were sealed with silicone and some had squeezed inside, so on closer inspection the pipes were removed and blown out, there were long strings of transparent sealer in them. I vowed never to use the damn stuff on fuel systems after all that.