Driving licence for saracen

[21BK40]

Hi all,.... one of my ambitions has always been to own a saracen, although it ocurred to me that I have never addressed the question of whether a saracen may be driven on a full car licence (issued in 1975). i used to drive them whilst with the Royal Yeomanry but not as a civy. Does anyone have any information on this issue - is it an "HGV" as such ?

 

Regards

Doug

[21BK40]

Hmmm! 63 Views but no answers yet, is that because nobody knows or is it because it's a daft question ...or even the fact that no-one else has given it a thought and is now worried that it may be a problem for them too if it turns out that you need an HGV !!!

 

Regrads

Doug

[Adrian Barrell]

I don't think you need an HGV as it's not a 'vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods'. Unless you consider troops goods.....

[JohnA61]

Interesting question.Its obviously not a goods carrier,but as to carrying passengers thats another thing.How many passengers do they carry as you can drive a nine seater on a car license recently issued ,but I think yours issued so long ago would allow upto 16 seats not for hire or reward.If its MOT exempt I would think you would be okay as long as you dont offer rides in it on the road.It would be an interesting question for the DVLA but I still wouldnt take their reply as word.

[barrynevuk]

What class of vehicle is the scaracen registered as? And what year is it?

 

 

Barry

101 radio body

FV432 Mk1

[Gordon_M]

If I had one I'd drive it on a car license, the weight aspect wouldn't really worry me as long as hire & reward or multiple seating weren't obvious problems.

 

However, I'm not really clear on the driving of vehicles on a public highway with restricted vision. Last time I was in a Saracen (and most of my armoured driving was Daimler armoured car, off-highway) it struck me that you couldn't really see a damn thing out of the drivers seat of either of them except straight ahead.

 

Anyone got any good guidelines / regulations about when you need someone to assist with drivers vision all round? Obviously with a Saladin you could put someone in the turret with a comm headset, but how would it work on an armoured vehicle with solid top and no turret provision?

 

Gordon

[21BK40]

Ah, ok guys - obviously not as silly a question as I thought it might be. This is a theoretical question as I don't have a saracen yet - just window shopping. As said, it might get complicated as it isn't strictly a goods vehicle. I wouldn't want to give the DVLA too much reason to consider the question ahead of buying one as their answer might have a roll-on effect on any saracen owners who currently drive on car licences. I guess it would depend on how you phrased the question and what information you decide to impart - whils we want to be "legal", we don't want to give too much away and spoil it for everybody do we.

 

Regds

Doug

[ChasSomT.]

I drove Saracen/Saladin and Ferret in the R.Y. and wouldn't have given it a thought to drive one now with us Both as civvies! Lads who took their tests in them found they had a licence for an Automatic car (Which I always thought was 'odd' - A definition of an Automatic gearbox I saw, was "One in which there was no means to vary the engine revs to road speed - which of course you Can do with a pre-select gearbox!)

My opinion is they are all 'Heavy Motor Cars' but I suppose that classification no longer exists! If as has been written above, recent new licence holders can drive 6 seater minibuses, I would say a car licence would cover it!

Any 'Grey area' that exists has been created by ill thought out recent legislation IF ANY !

 

Chas. (IKBA and Bar)

[andyroo]

I had my Saracen up and running in 1995. When I was getting it registered for the road I also made a few enquires regarding driving licence. DVLA at the time would not comment or advise, although they were happy to register it and at the time take the tax.

I drive mine on a car licence. Its not a HGV. Its no harder to drive than driving a van towing a caravan. I’ve driven several thousand miles on my own, you just have to think ahead earlier when approaching obstacles/junctions. If you have someone with you as an acting commander, you the driver are still responsible for your actions no matter what your commander instructed you to do.

Despite how it looks from the outside, I find the view though the front hatch very good, but then I am not driving with scopes or the using the small hatch. Some extra large rear view mirrors are a real big help.

The only time I like someone to watch over me as I drive is on the showground’s. As your fairly high up but with a bonnet of 6 feet or so is not so easy to see the MG or whatever that has just pulled in front of you!!!! The radio aerial dose give you a clue though!!! (providing they have one).

Its much easier to drive than a Saladin…

[21BK40]

Thank's for all your comments, it's all looking very positive. I never did have a problem with driving saracens solo, the visibility was, I thought actually better than the ferret (but for the bonnet), and not much worse than any decent sized box van come to that.

i'm certainly not in a rush to buy a saracen but I thought I'd just do some groundwork first...it's a very fine line between thinking about it and going for it though isn't it chaps !!!

 

Regds

Doug

[LoggyDriver]

Maybe this one would be tempting for you...

 

http://www.mod-sales.com/auction/vehicle/home/27769/ALVIS_SARACEN_ARMOURED_COMMAND_VEHICLE.htm

[Stone]

Some dodgy assumptions in here, 'It's not an HGV' doesn't mean you wouldn't need a C or C1 licence!

 

As you passed your test before 1997 your main entitlements should be B (car), B1 (quad bike), B+E (car + trailer), C1 (small LGV), C1E (small LGV + trailer), D1 (minibus) and D1E (minibus + trailer), plus A if you ride a motorbike. The combination of B, B1 and B+E allows you to drive anything up to 3500kg with a trailer more than 750kg (train weight limits apply). C1 is the magic one as on its own it allows you to drive anything with a Maximum Authorised Mass up to 7500kg - as you have an older licence you should have information code 107 on it which allows you to drive up to 8250kg.

 

It's the MAM as per the V5 that makes the difference, not whether or not it's a goods vehicle - per the rules our Bedford isn't a goods vehicle due to the permanently mounted engineering equipment, but you still need category C as the MAM is 9650kg. It's very much worth making the distinction as some of us aren't lucky enough to have passed before 1997 so we only got B and B1 when we passed our car tests! :police: There's absolutely no grey area as the licence categories are very rigidly defined - PC Plod will be looking at the V5 details to tell if you're in the right or not.

 

Answer: I can't drive a Saracen on my licence, but you can. Tony B will be along in a minute to fill in anything I got wrong

 

Stone

[LoggyDriver]

According to Withams the "combat" weight is 10,170Kgs. That's a HGV2 (Cat C) licence required. However it says the production run was from the 50's to 1972, so if you get a pre 1960 version you should be able to drive it on a car licence as it would be registered as a pre 1960 historic vehicle.

[ChasSomT.]

Yebbut, a Saracen isn't a Goods Vehicle, so, 'Logically'(?) you 'shouldn't' need a LGV licence for it. I take the point that since a few years ago, the weight limit you could drive on a car licence went down though.

First, we need to find the Powers that be's classification of the vehicle - I realise that could jeapordise present owners, so I will shut up.

It's a 'pity' they are not in current service, we could find out what licence someone passing their test in one would be issued with! Mind you, I can remember when RLs went from 3 to 4 tonners, so drivers then were issued with HGV class 3 licences under 'Grandfather's Rights' ! (and Stollies were class 2)

[saracenstump]

as long as its built before 1960 you can drive it on an ordinary car license,the other way is if its classed as agricultural,i think but dont quote me on the latter,mine was built 1953 so no problems there

[REME 245]

If an when you buy one do not acquire an unregistered vehicle without first checking the current DVLA policy on vehicle widths as Saracens may well now fall into the banned area.

 

They tried to stop me registering my Saladin approximately 12 years ago on this basis.

 

I was a VM in A Squadron of the RY.

 

Also if you want to go for originality for the RY period, don't buy an up-armoured Northern Ireland version.

Edited January 17, 2010 by REME 245

[Tony B]

'Fraid I've no idea on this one. The only time I've ever got to drive one was in Jersey years ago, and then we had our own rules. :???

[Stone]

According to Withams the "combat" weight is 10,170Kgs. That's a HGV2 (Cat C) licence required.

Ah, right, I thought they were under 8250. In that case you'll need a C unless you fit into one of the special arrangements in INF52 as above.

 

Simplest route is to get cat C and cat H and you're covered for anything we're likely to want

 

Stone

[paulob1]

Stone you are spot on, he Needs a C licence unless it can be positively proven and registered on the MOT as pre 1960...and he has an old licence..but to be honest I would get the test, it will improve your driving and make you safer on the roads even with the saracen...

[berna2vm]

Love the Saracen, one of my favourites:). I would have to agree with Paul about the license though.:-(

[21BK40]

A big thank you to everyone who got involved in this thread, it's always better to hear other people's take on things. I'm pleased in one way that it proved to be a not so straight forward answer 'cos it means that the question wasn't as silly as I thought it might have been - I was expecting some "silly bugger - doesn't he know anything" type answers :cool2:

I have decided that it would be in my interests to take the C cat test and be done with it - it will never be wasted and would give me more choice if I decide to buy a saracen with regard to year etc.

 

I have my work cut out getting my Pig back on the road at the moment - just fitted a master cylinder repair kit - hope it works !

 

Best regards

Doug

[oily]

it's all been said...if it's pre 1960, a car licence will do, and is perfectly legal. Mine is strangely registered as a 'heavy duty bus/coach', but as I have a class 2 licence anyway, there really were no issues, but I'd thoroughly recommend a class 2 licence as a minimum, for reasons already mentioned....:undecided:

[DP1981]

I would like to state now that i fully intend to take my C + D1 and H tests.

But during a phonecall to the DVLA to iron out a wrinkle with my licence i also took some extra to ask the guy about HMV and licencing.

As my sarry was built in 1957 and is registered as D1 it is classed as a historical bus, reagrdles of it's MAM. the chap i was talking to popped off a couple of times to ask someone to double check and eventually i spoke with his manager who agreed and confirmed what i was being told.

So even though i did not qualify for automatic entitlement and currently do not hold any C or D entitlements i am able to legaly drive my sarry.

 

I ask if i could get any formal notification of the regulations and i was directed to download http://www.direct.gov.uk/dr_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_10013774.pdf form from direct.gov

 

as i said at the top i do intend to take D C and H at some point in the future but as an accademic and legal exercise DLVA say it's good and the sarry is counted as a historical bus.

 

funky eh

 

But to top it all off i never resolved the issue for which i called in the first place. another one of those we have no record so you could never have taken the test.

[montie]

I would like to state now that i fully intend to take my C + D1 and H tests.

But during a phonecall to the DVLA to iron out a wrinkle with my licence i also took some extra to ask the guy about HMV and licencing.

As my sarry was built in 1957 and is registered as D1 it is classed as a historical bus, reagrdles of it's MAM. the chap i was talking to popped off a couple of times to ask someone to double check and eventually i spoke with his manager who agreed and confirmed what i was being told.

So even though i did not qualify for automatic entitlement and currently do not hold any C or D entitlements i am able to legaly drive my sarry.

 

I ask if i could get any formal notification of the regulations and i was directed to download http://www.direct.gov.uk/dr_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_10013774.pdf form from direct.gov

 

as i said at the top i do intend to take D C and H at some point in the future but as an accademic and legal exercise DLVA say it's good and the sarry is counted as a historical bus.

 

funky eh

 

But to top it all off i never resolved the issue for which i called in the first place. another one of those we have no record so you could never have taken the test.

 

You are way ahead of me! I still have to go through all the schlep. Have good fun with yours. Do post some pics, please???

[oily]

....-as my Saracen is registered as Heavy Bus/Coach, I guess I can use bus lanes!,... Lol, handy on long hill climbs where a bus lane is provided.... That way I don't inconvenience other road users.....