fc101daz Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi All I am looking for some James ML advice!I have been viewing a bike a couple of times now and although complete it does require total restoration.One thing I am unsure of is the frame number,it is ML10203?Does this make it a postwar civvy frame or is it still military?Engine number is OK.I see from Stefanos posts there could be a contract plate,if so where would this be?It needs an engine rebuild as the kickstart splines are worn and it won't hold oil so needs bushes but I'm led to believe engine parts are available?The whole bike needs detailing as things like footpegs and handlebars are wrong.There are some stays missing from the fromt mudguard.Is this kind of thing available?I'm not scared of the work as I restore classic cars for a living and the bike is VERY cheap!!!!!!!! Your input would be much appreciated Daren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) Hi All I am looking for some James ML advice!I have been viewing a bike a couple of times now and although complete it does require total restoration.One thing I am unsure of is the frame number,it is ML10203?Does this make it a postwar civvy frame or is it still military?Engine number is OK.I see from Stefanos posts there could be a contract plate,if so where would this be?It needs an engine rebuild as the kickstart splines are worn and it won't hold oil so needs bushes but I'm led to believe engine parts are available?The whole bike needs detailing as things like footpegs and handlebars are wrong.There are some stays missing from the fromt mudguard.Is this kind of thing available?I'm not scared of the work as I restore classic cars for a living and the bike is VERY cheap!!!!!!!! Your input would be much appreciated Daren Daren, Frame N°10203 will put the bike well into civilian production, although check if the number looks like it's been restamped because this kind of thing happened only too often. The contract plate (they were mounted on the (abbreviated) rear mudguard, just below the "fag end" rear light. Engine and gearbox spares are available from Villiers Services, whilst sheet metal cycle parts can be found from Terry Roberts Metal Magic (check my restoration thread for details). As far as I know, unlike the Flying Flea, in the ML's case there isn't a great deal to differentiate WW2 from civvy production, apart from the rear mudguard (shorter), the headlamp switch (no "T"), speedometer drive (no speedo on the WW2 ones), footpegs (folding), and a few other bits and bobs such as the petrol tank cap and handlebar lock. Hope this is of some assistance, Stefano Edited August 14, 2009 by Stefano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc101daz Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Hi Stefano, Yeh,that all helps thank you.I'm not really sure what to do on this one.It has been far too militarized to be returned to civvy bike already and to be honest with you a civvy one wouldn't interest me anyway.I'm not sure if I want a "pretend" military one either though.I know 99% of people would never know by the time I have finished,but would I be wasting my time?It is VERY cheap though!!!!Is my military motorcycle guru ford369 back from Normandy yet??!!!! Daren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford 369 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Hello Darren ,yes I got back from Normandy saturday night skint and knackered as usual, I think the fact that the frame number starts with ML signifies that it is indeed a military bike although I could be wrong,I will post the question on the wd motorcycle forum tonight and see if I can get any info for you ,also I think if you go into Borders bookshop in St Helier they have a copy of the bible of wartime Brit bikes BRITISH FORCES MOTORCYCLES by Chris Orchard and Steve Madden which may help,having just had a quick look at my copy it appears that the first military contract stats at frame number 11896 so this one appears earlier unless the number has been altered or misread anyway I will post the question and give you a ring when I get some info Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford 369 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 question posted and awaiting replies Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 It appears that the first military contract stats at frame number 11896 so this one appears earlier unless the number has been altered or misread anyway I will post the question and give you a ring when I get some info Nigel Nigel, Referring to the Madden & Orchard book the evaluation prototype indeed had frame N° 11896, but the production military frame numbers start at ML 2 and finish at ML 8500, with quite significant gaps along the way, which means that in fact only 6140 bikes were built during WW2. The ML prefix was maintained for the civilian version until it was phased out in 1948, when it was replaced by the Cadet (Villiers 10D engine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford 369 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 thanks for the info Stefano I know just about nothing about these little bikes so am always glad to learn something new ,the only queestion this raises is that with a number as low as this one would it still have the ML prefix ,also would it not seem logical that postwar bikes with the ML numbers are late military bikes converted for civvy use when they were no longer needed to fulfill a military contract prior to civilian production restarting? Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc101daz Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Thank you both for all your help and replies so far.I'm beginning to think I should have it anyway and restore it as a military spec bike.It is a sweet little thing and ideal for chucking in the back of the truck to take to shows.I will try and get hold of a copy of that book.It would be nice to have a definitive answer to the frame number anyway.It comes with no registration document anyway and needs to be registered and I would like to be able to give it a legitimate date of birth!!!I am going to go and take a closer look now I am armed with more info!! Daren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Basically, the early postwar ML's were dead ringers for the wartime ones, apart from the electrics, speedometer and rear mudguard. Fact is that the final contract for 3000 machines was reduced to 1500 because the war was drawing to an end, and if the contract had been completed the WD frame numbers would have gone all the way to 10,000, which is just shy of your frame number. A large proportion of ML's never saw active service due to the fact that the 'Flea was a shade lighter and could be dropped by parachute, and after the war these were either disposed of or returned to the factory for refurbishing to civilian spec. So whilst it is true to say that the later ML's were a bit different to the wartime ones, I reckon that the one you're looking at would have been a dead ringer for a pukka WW2 model (apart from the frame number, handlebar lock, fuel cap and footrests (maybe)). Funnily enough, the same cannot be said for the civilian Flying Flea, because there were a whole host of modifications made to the civilian bikes, which means pretty major surgery to create an accurate replica. Whether or not you restore the James to military spec or not is up to you, I know that I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it, but on the other hand you're not really doing anything that a lick of maroon paint won't cure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylohere Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Greetings... Here's a photo of my little Clockwork Mouse. I'm not too sure whether this bike was actually flung out of a transport aircraft in WWII or not, because I bought this bike off the son of the original old timer who unfortunately is no more. The bloke wanted to get rid of the old man's things since his passing and was rather glad that I was to unburden him by taking this piece of 'junk' out of his yard. It's taken me about eight months to do up, and something tells me I ought to have picked up the olive drab paint at the hardware shop. In retrospect, it's good I didn't as military colours are banned on private vehicles here in India, irrespective of their history and getting stopped every 5 feet by a constable is no fun at all. There was no provision for the speedometer, the petrol tank cover was missing when I brought the bike home and the foot-rests fold in. So shhot me, which model do I actually have - a civvie or the war veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowtracdave Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 That looks gorgeous and you have made a fantastic job of it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Cute little things aren't they? In any case, if the frame number is between ML2 and ML 8500 it's ex War Department Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylohere Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Thanks a tonne for the pat on the back, guys. Stefano, thanks for the numbers. I'll have to check because, here I am, at office, trying to work and the James is at home! Ha! I don't think the boss would mind though, he loves old motorcycles and adores the Vespa I built for him! Snickers wickedly! Since I'm now all fired up with enthusiasm, here are a few pics of my Brit oldies. The AJS is a civvie 1954 model but I'm sure you guys wouldn't be averse to me putting up a photo of it here. Cheers! Kyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The vast majority of ex-WD bikes have spent most of their life in civilian colour schemes. They're now being bought up and painted green in huge numbers. It seems a shame in some ways that this aspect of post-war history could become quite uncommon. Nortons are pricey here too but of course the side-valves are pulled up by the price of the sporting models. Huge quantities of Norton 16Hs were sent to India prior to 1939. At some points the India Office was taking more than the British War Department. They often had features which were only later to become standard on the WD models. I've never seen an India Office Norton with upswept exhaust and rear mounted air filter. I wonder if any survive ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylohere Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Well, it seems that more M20s were sent down to India as compared to Ariels, Nortons and Enfields. The number of M20s that have survived here in India certainly far exceeds the 16Hs, or at least that is what appears to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc101daz Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Hi All Thank you very much for all your help and advice about the bike.I did buy it in the end and pick it up tomorrow.I think it will be a great little project.When I went back to look at it it does look as if the frame number has been added to at some time!!! The ML 102 part is all on a level with very even spacing in between, the 03 at the end is lower and squashed up together.It's hard to tell until I take the paint off, but the two 0s seem to be a different typeset!! It will be easier to have a good poke around with it when it is back here and I will post some pics when I can. Thanks again for all your help Regards Daren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford 369 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 just beware of all that power mate it could run away with you,hope its finished by the end of november so I can have a go,and are you gonna bring it to weymouth next year Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc101daz Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 Hi Nigel, Yeh,it has been a while since I rode the Ducati so it might be a good way of breaking me in gently!!! As far as ready for November you haven't seen it yet have you?!!! Would like to get the engine done so it was possible to ride it round a field by Weymouth next year although I do have another few jobs to do as well!!!!!!! See you soon Daren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford 369 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 yeah nothing too big though ,it will easily fit in the back of the chevy for the trip over Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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