wdbikemad

Three questions: Does anybody have an example of the early-issue British DPM para smock - introduced during 1977-78, this version should have the sizing in numbers (eg: "Size 2") rather than metric, and will not have the small field dressing pocket fitted to the rear upper-right arm.... Sniper Smock - introduced during 1977-78, there may exist two versions. Can anybody confirm if the earlier version has a partial green poplin lining as per the para smock ? Later versions seem to have the partial lining in DPM....The August 1986 Combat Clothing catalogue lists two models of sniper smock together with NSN's......can anybody confirm further details ? Windproof Smock - the 1963 pattern (full zip) "SAS" smock was manufactured in olive green gaberdine during the late 1960's....I've seen a couple of examples worn in period photos plus one original example seen at a distance.....not to be confused with the wartime smock made in green denim material.... If anyone can assist with the above, or post some images, this would be great. Thanks !

Chaps (and ladies ???) - I've only recently joined the Forum.....been browsing for a while, and decided to become involved only because I hope to have some answers to some of the questions arising.....! I'm ex-forces, so have some practical experience of the subject....but this topic is rather poorly covered today as I think we all will agree upon...! In time, I hope to at least partially rectify this situation by putting my accumulated thoughts into print....but until then, lets get discussion of British post-war combat and uniform clothing going....we can all learn something new, especially me, and thanks to all so far for making me so welcome on the Forum....! regards....wdbikemad....(steve) :-)

Not certain that this is a MoD-issued item....the label does not appear to carry any contract number reference, together with the fact that it states "SAS", something not applied to garments....(although the SAS reference does feature in the descriptive text for issue to certain units in the MoD combat clothing catalogue Section CG)..... I suspect that this may be a commercial copy from perhaps "Survival Aids", "SASS", etc, some of which feature NSN's to add authenticity......? The original MoD-issue "SAS" windproof smock in DPM was approved and introduced into service during 1975, alongside the matching trousers (the type with the cross-over belt fastened waist)....These garments were made from cotton gaberdine and not in any other material.....The label (and official references) designate the garment "Smock, Windproof, Camouflage" (and "Trousers, Windproof, Camouflage") with no reference on either garment to "SAS"..... The above garments remained on issue and in production until the mid 2000's when replaced by an improved specification..... During production, the only change made was the addition of the small field dressing (?) pocket to the rear of the upper right sleeve around 1984....... Neither garment should be confused with the Arctic Windproof smock and trousers that are of a different specification, especially the trousers....... Some collectors may have come across a rather rare DPM smock, labelled "Smock, Windproof, 1963 Pattern".......this item resembles a WW2 British Army windproof smock in cut, but features a fully opening zip front and is manufactured in DPM cotton sateen..... Made in a size range of 1 to 9, many collectors wrongly assume that this garment actually dates from 1963......the explanation is far more simple, in that when DPM was introduced into the British Army during 1970, production of the windproof smock simply switched over to the new DPM fabric......the "1963 Pattern" designation refers to the full-zip specification in the same way as the "1959 Pattern" Denison smock, and not the actual cammo pattern ! This item remained in production and on issue between 1970 and 1975 when replaced by the gaberdine DPM windproof.....many photos of the early 1970's show SAS and marines wearing this particular garment..... It is not known if any wartime pattern trousers were made to accompany the 1963 pattern DPM smock, but it is possible. However, it is more likely that the item was intended to be worn with the new general issue DPM trousers in both 1960 and 1968 patterns.....

1953 olive drab hood used with the 1960 pattern olive AND DPM smock.....1968 pattern DPM hood issued and used with the 1960 pattern DPM smock when introduced during 1972 (later than the smock)...... No specific 1960 pattern hood made in olive or DPM......you will be searching for something that never existed.... British Army QM catalogue Section CG (combat clothing) still lists the DPM '68 pattern hood as available but obsolete during August 1986......same catalogue also lists the olive drab 1953 pattern hood as available (and NOT obsolete !!) in a size 2 only....

When the '68 pattern combat suit was introduced during 1971, it was available in Sizes 1 to 9 and "special"....PLUS an additional small size range of Size 01 to 04...... However, another size range appears to have been adopted specifically for Gurkha troops during the early 1970's, running from Size G1 through to G9....... The suit is identical to the normal '68 pattern except for the label which carries the "Gurkha" designation, size, and unique NSN per size...... It would seem that the Gurkha size range was found unnecessary and appears to have been discontinued during the mid-1970's, the size range of standard DPM '68 items being sufficient to fit the majority of troops.......:-)

Puttees were fairly common alongside the old webbing anklets during the 1960's, though the former were nearly always preferred in the tropics if jungle boots weren't worn......para's and marines pretty much always wore puttees......by the mid-1970's puttees were commonplace across the British Army and an issue item alongside the DMS ankle boots...... '44 webbing was the norm for tropical use through to the 1980's, although some '58 pattern kit was also worn. Para's invariably wore '44 pattern everywhere or intermixed with '58 pattern kit, although by the early 1980's '58 pattern was normal for everyone, including para's, both for European and tropical wear...... New '58 pattern kit is still easily available in the UK (all items) with the exception of waistbelts that are becoming increasingly hard to find unissued......'44 pattern kit is also still available new (it was made right up to the 1970's) but you will struggle finding new waterbottles, mugs and covers, large-size waistbelts and pre-65 small-packs (smaller than the larger version issued from '65 onwards - there was no '44 pattern small and large pack in the fashion of '37 pattern web equipment.......

If it is of any help to anyone out there, any smock or trouser with "1968 pattern" on the label and a NSN beginning with "8405" is a 1971 to 77/78 production in cotton-sateen..... If not carrying the "1968 designation" (though this was not always applied to labels) AND a NSN beginning with "8415" then it's 1977/78 to 83/84 production in either (old stock) cotton-sateen or cotton-modal (semi-synthetic fibre)...... The 1974 - 76 troop-trial combat suits were described as made in "cotton-vincel" but it is thought that this may simply be an alternative description to cotton-modal...:-)

These parkas were still on issue during the late 1970's, and I wouldn't mind betting that a few remained in use into the 1980's.......the things were never personal issue, and some units who held the items in pool stocks never actually issued certain sizes as the individuals with those measurements weren't on strength ! Jason - email me at sjmwdbikemad@aol.com regards Steve

My boots were coated in "Johnsons Klear" floor polish...great unless it rained or some bod stepped on your toe-caps....:-( I managed to solve the problem by getting my toecaps sprayed with bullet-proof aircraft-quality high-gloss black paint in the base spray-bay.......great for the old DMS ankle boots but not really practicable on the combat high's !!

David - one point of note when ordering the late-pattern OG trousers with the crossover-belt waist fastening......they sit rather high, a bit like the older types of combat and battledress trousers - so you may need to measure your waist slightly higher than normal.... Also look at SOF Military in the UK.....I think they offer a repro pair of British OG wartime pattern trouser ? Website is good....look under Re-enactment - British WW2 - clothing - jungle, etc

You often find small white cloth manufacturers tags attached to various parts of the 1968 pattern combat smock and trousers (usually found inside pockets, crutch flaps, etc)....they were used by the manufacturer to assemble a particular size garment during mass production.....the paper tag, however, is unusual..... It should be noted that the "1968 pattern" designation only applies to combat suit production from 1971 to around 1977-78. The "68 pattern" garments were made from cotton-sateen material and during 77-78 this was replaced by an improved semi-synthetic cotton-modal fabric (field-tested between April 1974 and 1976 in Germany and Northern Ireland). Concerns had been raised at the durability and shrink-resistance of the cotton-sateen fabric together with its weight when wet and in hot weather conditions.... The NATO stock number for both the smock and trouser was changed at this time to reflect the new version made from the newer material, the "1968 pattern" designation also being dropped from the labelling and official references.....this improved combat suit lasted until 1984 when replaced by another model. During 1981-82 the trousers were lightly revised to incorporate a better lining and attachment method, plus an extra belt loop was added at the rear to make up 6 instead of 5 on the earlier version.... It is wise never to date a DPM garment by the cammo pattern....some manufacturers continued to make garments in older fabrics to use up stocks, and the various DPM patterns and colours encountered a generally manufacturer variations and not indicative of date of production.......I have several garments in the collection that are of post-1977-78 production in the newer material and with the later NSN coding but on first glance would appear to be the earlier "68 pattern" simply due to the DPM cammo patterning and colour....

I too have a few of examples of the British Korean War Middle Parka, including two brand new examples in a size 1 and a size 9 (massive !)......the item was still in use right up to the late-1970's.... I haven't yet established exactly why the two patterns of parka exist but it's on my list of things to research..... Rumour is that a camouflage version was also produced. Never seen one, although a few years ago now I did briefly own a cammo British experimental parka that was lighter in weight than the Korean model and that pulled on over the head.....the cammo was similar in colour to the WW2 cammo windproofs, but more "splodgy" in design than "brushstrokes"......

Re - the earlier post - David, I think a guy trading under the name "Panzerfaust" based in Hong Kong does a copy of the wartime jungle trousers ? He's on Ebay........from the photos, the items look good.....

One area of research that has so far eluded me, are the "wool pile" fleece liners used under combat clothing during the Korean War.....trousers in this fabric existed, but not sure about the top half....? Ever seen anything like this ?

Point taken :-D ! My good lady is often surprised at how much I seem to know about the most obscure things yet nothing important in her mind ........ I've only just joined the HMVF Forum.....reading a few posts made me realise that I had the answers to a number of questions..... British post-war combat clothing is a bit of an underrated subject.....if you want to know about German WW2 helmets or Jeeps, there's a ton of info out there but for Brit clothing comparatively little, much of which is available being full of errors and inaccuracies..... I've been collecting the stuff since handing my own gear in during 1985...guess that's what sparked me off....since then, I've been acquiring loads of official info, original items, photos, etc....and it's rather surprising just what you discover along the way..... I'm intending to put all this info into publication, hopefully next year, full of text, facts and photos of original items.....everything is based on sound research and evidence so hopefully, when released, the record will be a little clearer at long last......the book is already well underway with text and photos rapidly accumulating.....

I will see what I can come up with.....I may be able to acquire some 1953 pattern hoods... As for the Cookson & Clegg labelling, again, I will see if I can get some images of the garments in my stash....interestingly, on the Cookson-produced smocks, the sizing and instruction labels are both fitted at the lower-right inner of the smock, rather than the former being at the rear of the collar..... There are several versions of the old olive drab smocks and trousers...... The original pattern smock introduced during 1951 was fully lined, but in 1962 (on the 1960 pattern) the lining was reduced to mid-waist level....in the mid-1960's the smock lining was changed from gaberdine to poplin and the sleeve design altered for an improved fit (the type with the oval-shape elbow patches).......as for the trousers, you have the 1951 type (with button flap over the fly), the 1953 modified type (losing the flap) and the 1953 pattern unlined variety, before going on to the lined 1960 pattern introduced during 1962 ! The story goes on in far more boring detail....

I have a few 1960 pattern DPM smocks and trousers.....a study of all garments reveal only two manufacturers for this pattern in DPM.......James Smith & Co and Cookson & Clegg Ltd.....plus, only two contract numbers....... The 1960 pattern suit in DPM was introduced during early-1970 following the decision to introduce DPM camouflage throughout the British Army....it is thought that the existing olive drab combat suit then in production was manufactured in DPM to get production going underway without the need to change specifications, design, etc......the DPM suit, apart from the actual cammo fabric, is identical to the green version so the changeover would have been simple for manufacturers to adopt....James Smith and Cookson & Clegg were large volume manufacturers so would have had little difficulty in incorporating such changes in production.... The 1968 pattern suit was undergoing development and field trials up to 1970, but the decision to adopt DPM was made prior to the new suit being approved for service....hence the interim DPM 1960 pattern.....the 1968 pattern suit began to appear during 1971, therefore production of the DPM 1960 pattern suit lasted for probably a little over one year only....... The DPM 1960 pattern suit was used for troop trials and the initial issue of DPM clothing, and remained on issue until stocks were exhausted.....a mate of mine was actually issued with a new DPM 1960 pattern Size 9 smock during 1984...although he was a bit of an outsize individual to start with... No 1960 pattern DPM hood or combat cap were issued to accompany the smock and trousers.....indeed, the green 1960 pattern smock used the 1953 pattern olive drab hood and this continued to be used on the 1960 pattern DPM smock until issue of the 1968 pattern DPM hood (and cap) during 1972..... "1966 pattern" DPM....a myth.....I have much original documentation charting the introduction of DPM clothing into the British Army...and we are looking no earlier than 1970 (with the exception of some rare trial garments made during the 1960's).....

British DPM camouflage was not introduced into the Army until 1970, when it appeared on the existing 1960-pattern combat smock and trousers.....this combat suit was replaced during 1971 by the improved 1968 pattern combat suit comprising smock, liner, trousers, hood and cap..... There are many manufacturers who produced the DPM combat smock and trousers....James Smith & Co of Derby were one of the larger manufacturers, alongside Cookson & Clegg Ltd. Other manufacturers include H E Textiles Ltd, Clayton St.Mill, H Lotery & Co Ltd, Dashmore Clothing Ltd, Wm Brownlee Ltd, Jeltek Weatherguard Ltd, Compton Webb Ltd, Supercraft Garments Ltd, Beaver of Bolton Ltd, etc, to name but a few.......

The RAF Plod had two armbands issued in the early 1980's...... One was the wool-cloth horizontally-banded black-red-black type with the black embroidered letters "RAFP".....it fastened at the rear by a set of 3-rows of press-studs....this was intended for wear on the No.1 SD jacket and that bloody awful zip-up jacket in RAF blue-grey material that nobody wore (I don't blame 'em either).... The other was a printed-cotton armband in the same colours as above but bearing a white-printed "RAF Police" on the black banding (the "RAF" bit on the top band and the "Police" bit on the lower).....in the centre on the red band were printed in white the relevant rank chevrons from corporal through to flight sergeant......the armlet was fastened at the rear with velcro and was poorly printed and very thin.... Nobody knew what this thing was actually for (a few suggestions spring to mind), but it was occasionally worn on the sleeve of the NBC suit and the blue waterproof "crisp-packet" jacket.....but it was so awful it usually fell off after 5 minutes or so.......

"Jersey, Man's, Wool, Olive Drab" (Heavy)..... Size 0 for chest 80.8cm NSN 8405-99-132-2871 Size 1 for chest 90cm NSN 8405-99-132-1770 to Size 4 for chest 106cm NSN 8405-99-132-1773 then Size 5 for chest 112cm NSN 8405-99-137-8592 to Size 6 for chest 116cm NSN 8405-99-137-8593 and for the outsize "Special" (measure) NSN 8405-99-137-1991

The British Army changed over from jungle green clothing to DPM camouflage during the mid-1970's - roughly 1975 to 1976....the DPM clothing had been undergoing extensive trial and development since at least 1971 and took time to reach approval for introduction.... The standard jungle green suit used from the late-1960's through to the introduction of DPM comprised of cotton denim trousers featuring the cross-over belt waist fastening with buckles on either side of the waist, a button (or zip on later production) fly, a button patch pocket on the outside left leg, a pair of slash side pockets and a pair of rear flap-fastened pockets.......these were damn fine trousers, and favoured by para's for wear with the Denison smock. A similar version were available in khaki drill for middle east use, sometimes lacking the large left-leg pocket..... These trousers are hard to find today, and generally are rather small in size if found....Silverman's offer a reasonable copy of these called "P-Coy" trousers up to a 38" waist for a reasonable £29 quid or so, but the green is rather too dark for the original olive green shade.......they also do the khaki drill variety..... The jungle green shirt was made in "aertex" (shreddie) material with long sleeves and tails....it opened all the way down the front and all buttons were small plastic. A collar was fitted together with shoulder straps and a pair of box-pleated breast pockets with 3-pointed shaped flaps.....the shirt was a rather snug fit from memory....Sabre Sales in Southsea still have a few new-old-stock examples kicking around, but in very small sizes only (13" collar).......:-)